Pancake Boxes Surface Mounted.

[mkgrady]

I'm looking at a job to replace numerous exterior light fixtures. It's about 200 of them. Half are hanging from a porch ceiling and half are wall mounted on a porch, All of the building finishes are wood.

In the majority of the instances the existing fixtures are not installed on an outlet box. I plan to install a box where they are missing. In many instances the existing fixtures are mounted on 3 inch pancake boxes that are surface mounted.

Some of the fixtures have a shallow canopy, and where they are mounted on a pancake box the canopy does not sit flush with wall or ceiling exposing the connections to the weather. In other cases the canopys are very deep and they seem to work but there is very little room in the canopy that is filled with the pancake box.

My first question is... does it violate the code to surface mount a pancake box? It seems to me the proper way to install a pancake box is to mount it flush with the wall or ceiling surface.

Second question. When is it acceptable to install a three inch pancake box. There doesn't seem to be enough room to contain the splices.

Third question. If a fixture has a deep canopy and it is mounted on a surface mounted pancake box, and the canopy is flush with the wall or ceiling surface, does this meet code?

My hope is that none of these surface mounted pancakes are acceptable. If that is the case, I would replace them all with a four inch pancake if there is a stud there, and if not, I would install a 3 inch round old work box.

 

[augie47]

Most of the similar installations I have seen fail to me Code due to the inadequate cu in of the pancake box and the fact that the canopy don't help since they are not marked as required by 314.16(A).
One solution I have seen is the use of a round wiremold box. They are available in various diameters and you can normally find one that will allow your canopy to mount flush against the box surface and also provide adequate wire capacity,

 

[ActionDave]

That would only work for indoors, but a round bell box could work for a outdoor location.

 

[Ponchik]

..., but a round bell box could work for a outdoor location.

From my experience, a round bell box is good only when the canopy of the fixture truly fits on the bell box, otherwise the canopy sits over the bell box and especially if it is other than round canopy it will not sit correctly.

How about if you just install round remodel boxes for all of them?

Unless, i believe if the canopy is stamped with the cu" capacity then you can use it towards your box fill capacity of the pancake boxes.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

If we are talking wet location the bell box won't work unless the fixture can seal around the box. Wiremold, although commonly seen on porches in damp locations, is not compliant as it is rated dry location.

 

[frankft2000]

What about using a Arlington 8161 ?

 

[ActionDave]

... a round bell box could work for a outdoor location.

... a round bell box is good only when the canopy of the fixture truly fits on the bell box, otherwise the canopy sits over the bell box and especially if it is other than round canopy it will not sit correctly.

... bell box won't work unless the fixture can seal around the box.

I did use the word "could" but did not expand the comment. Thank you guys for clarifying.

 

[ActionDave]

My first question is... does it violate the code to surface mount a pancake box? It seems to me the proper way to install a pancake box is to mount it flush with the wall or ceiling surface.

I don't know, but I agree the way that seems proper is to flush mount them.

Second question. When is it acceptable to install a three inch pancake box. There doesn't seem to be enough room to contain the splices.

314.16(A) says you can count the extra volume of domed covers if they are marked with their volume.

 

[Buck Parrish]

Flush mount or pop in box is the way to go. They'll go pretty fast after the first few. Hole saw the opening. Keep some 6 or 8/32 nuts and a magic marKer handy. So when the screw won't go back far enough screw a nut on it then cut it off.

 

[tommyrice]

surface mounting exterior fixtures

surface mounting exterior fixtures

arlington makes vinyl mounting blocks for variety of lap or flat surfaces.only problem is they are white.i use them a lot.

 

[mkgrady]

If we are talking wet location the bell box won't work unless the fixture can seal around the box. Wiremold, although commonly seen on porches in damp locations, is not compliant as it is rated dry location.

These are open porches so I assume wet location.

These must be difficult questions . Only the one about a 3 inch pancake being large enough has been answered. The rest of the responses are helpful and appreciated though.

 

[Little Bill]

Attention George Stolz

Attention George Stolz

George Stolz, if you are here, this thread is a perfect example of one of the problems listed in the "changes to forum". When you open this thread it says it has 2 pages (which it will now that I've posted). But when you click on "last" it takes you to the OP, it is only 1 page.

 

[Finite10]

Raco 293 has 6 cu. inches IIRC and 4" dia.
You really need a cu. in. rated canopy with those, even at the end of the line single wire, just capped off. If they're not under a rafter or joist I'd use a cut-in.

Most inspectors turn their head as there's not much choice when centering a light under a joist or beam. Some guys try to use #12 and others even try 3 wire... not wise to push it.

 

[Ponchik]

George Stolz, if you are here, this thread is a perfect example of one of the problems listed in the "changes to forum". When you open this thread it says it has 2 pages (which it will now that I've posted). But when you click on "last" it takes you to the OP, it is only 1 page.

I have had the same problem with other topics.

 

[mkgrady]

Raco 293 has 6 cu. inches IIRC and 4" dia.
You really need a cu. in. rated canopy with those, even at the end of the line single wire, just capped off. If they're not under a rafter or joist I'd use a cut-in.

Most inspectors turn their head as there's not much choice when centering a light under a joist or beam. Some guys try to use #12 and others even try 3 wire... not wise to push it.

You're saying even a 4 inch pancake needs a canopy with cubic inch rating? All these fixtures have one 14-2 romex feeding them.

I take it a cut-in is an old work box. Doesn't the fixture have to be hung with 8-32 screws?

I was thinking a 4 inch pancake where I find a joist behind the wall or ceiling and a three inch round old work where there isn't a joist or stud.

 

[ActionDave]

That sounds like a good plan.
A cut in box is an old work box. I use them to hang lite fixtures from all the time.

The cubic inches of the canopy do not have to be labeled from the factory.
You can calculate your own cubic inch volume and mark it on the canopy.