Exhaust Fan In Shower Space

[A/A Fuel GTX]

Since arc fault breakers offer about 30ma of ground fault protection, would that satisfy the manufacturers requirement for GFCI protection for exhaust fans within a shower space?

 

[jumper]

I do not believe so.

GFCI and GFPE are very specific about their parameters of protection.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Why do you have afci in the bathroom? One of the reasons for not requiring AFCI in the baths and kitchen is because of exhaust fans, I believe.

I also agree with Derek.

 

[cadpoint]

I'll assume that it's a residential bathroom, how do you get by or meet the requirements of Article 210.8 (A) or if not a residence (B)?

This most be a very usual requirement of a free standing shower...

 

[A/A Fuel GTX]

Why do you have afci in the bathroom? One of the reasons for not requiring AFCI in the baths and kitchen is because of exhaust fans, I believe.

I also agree with Derek.

The lighting circuit in the bathroom is fed from the master bedroom circuit hence AFCI protection.

 

[A/A Fuel GTX]

I'll assume that it's a residential bathroom, how do you get by or meet the requirements of Article 210.8 (A) or if not a residence (B)?

This most be a very usual requirement of a free standing shower...

I dont have my book with me. Please expand on your reference 210.8. This is a residence.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

The lighting circuit in the bathroom is fed from the master bedroom circuit hence AFCI protection.

I always avoid that when possible.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I dont have my book with me. Please expand on your reference 210.8. This is a residence.

I think Cad is a bit confused. He was talking about the GFCI requirement for the sink area I believe. This is not in place of the req. recep, so 210.8 doesn't come into play.

 

[A/A Fuel GTX]

I always avoid that when possible.

So you always put each bathroom in a residence on a separate 20A circuit even if the bathroom is adjacent to another bathroom?

 

[al hildenbrand]

In a nutshell, the UL and manufacturer required GFI protection for the exhaust fan in a residential bath or shower space is for protection of personnel, not for protection of the equipment.

The 5 to 6 mA trip of a class A GFI is tied to the heart of a person, that is, most people can't tolerate current levels above this when in the cross section of the heart - the worst case through body fault.

Arc Fault Interrupters that have a GFI component can have trip levels at 60 mA. That's an order of magnitude greater.

Chest muscles constrict and suffocation occurs at 35 mA.

The GE Combination Arc Fault doesn't have a GFI trip.

 

[A/A Fuel GTX]

In a nutshell, the UL and manufacturer required GFI protection for the exhaust fan in a residential bath or shower space is for protection of personnel, not for protection of the equipment.

The 5 to 6 mA trip of a class A GFI is tied to the heart of a person, that is, most people can't tolerate current levels above this when in the cross section of the heart - the worst case through body fault.

Arc Fault Interrupters that have a GFI component can have trip levels at 60 mA. That's an order of magnitude greater.

Chest muscles constrict and suffocation occurs at 35 mA.

The GE Combination Arc Fault doesn't have a GFI trip.

Well said, Al. I'm wondering why a light above a bathtub doesn't require GFI protection but an exhaust fan does.

 

[cadpoint]

A Bathroom needs a circuit and GCFI for receptacle protection, thus a off shoot off of a Bedroom AFCI suppling a circuit to a bathroom recepacle is a Code violation.

Yes You need a circuit to the bathroom, it shows up in house load calc too...

If you stealing the Same circuit from the Bedroom to supply the Fan off an AFCI circuit than you could put a faceless GFCI. If the next bathroom has a Dedicated 20 amp circuit you can tap that bathroom and get GFCI protection for your fan.

I beleive 210.8 is still in play ( the OP doesn't even have a circuit dedicated to the Bathroom.)

 

[cadpoint]

I'm reading out of 2008 tonight!

 

[Ponchik]

is there a AFCI/GFCI combo unit?

Back to OP question, You have to follow manufacturers requirement, almost all exhaust fans that are installed in the shower area require GFCI protection. On a second note, I don't see a problem having a GFCI unit on a lighting circuit that is AFCI protected.

 

[A/A Fuel GTX]

A Bathroom needs a circuit and GCFI for receptacle protection, thus a off shoot off of a Bedroom AFCI suppling a circuit to a bathroom recepacle is a Code violation.

Sorry but you are wrong. If I run a dedicated 20A circuit for the bathroom receptacles, I can supply 10 bathrooms with that circuit as long as it only supplies receptacles. The lighting and exhaust fans can be tapped from any circuit with adequate ampacity.

 

[cadpoint]

Sorry but you are wrong. If I run a dedicated 20A circuit for the bathroom receptacles, I can supply 10 bathrooms with that circuit as long as it only supplies receptacles. The lighting and exhaust fans can be tapped from any circuit with adequate ampacity.

I'm not wrong, if you need to supply a gfci protection per the manufacture, I said what to do.

 

[A/A Fuel GTX]

I'm not wrong, if you need to supply a gfci protection per the manufacture, I said what to do.

I normally feed exhaust fans in shower spaces from a gfi but my question was simply, can I use an afci circuit to feed exhaust fans in shower spaces since there is marginal gfi protection as part of some afci breakers. I don't know how these simple questions can get so convoluted.

 

[cadpoint]

Check the Index, Ground-Fault Circuit-Interrupter, Bathroom.

It's seems more like a Charlie Rule to me

It painfull to post here, even with correct Code Applications!

Called out by Moderato all the time, and even with correct statements still wrong to an application.

I state again if you don't have a circuit for the bathroom for the BATHROOM RECEP you have a violation, I Stated earlier that you can steal the Circuit power from the Bedroom and now you want to argue that as well.

There is no requirement By Code to protect any Light or anything else in a Bathoom other than a receptacle by Code, I never said there was.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

The afci will not suffice. You do need a GFCI to protect the bath fan because of manufacturers requirement. Use a dead front gfci, as cadpoint stated, ahead of the fan and take it off the light circuit/bedroom circuit.

All of this assumes you have a 20 amp cir. for the recep in the bathroom(S).

To answer your question I usually will put the bathroom lights on one circuit unless they are on opposite ends of the house. I usually figure a way to keep the bathroom lights separate from AFCI circuits. I can tie it to the laundry light cir. or other bathroom lighting circuits. Either way I don't afci the bath, kitchen or laundry lights.

 

[jaylectricity]

I don't know how these simple questions can get so convoluted.

Welcome to the forum! :grin: