Is upgrade required when remodeling?

[antenna2001]

Hi,
Some time ago, I think I read that when you upgrade part of a system, you are responsible for making sure that the entire system is in working order.

Say, for example that you are called to reposition a few outlets, lights, and switches during a residential kitchen remodel. Are you responsible for checking that the branch circuit supplying the range is the correct size even though you might not have to do any work on it?

Also, if while you check the kitchen supply, you find that the bedroom circuit might be overloaded. Are you responsible for fixing that too or can you just mention it to the homeowner, finish the kitchen work, and let the homeowner make the decision of whether or not he wants you to check that?

I am getting ready to start a new business and this is one of the scenarios I want to be prepared for and I don't have an answer to. I'll appreciate your help. Thanks

I don't rememer if I saw, in the NEC, something that covers this area.

 

[iwire]

None of what you are asking is covered in the NEC it is up to each area how they handle it.

Unfortunately only a person from your area can really answer your question and there are always many variables that go into it.

 

[infinity]

If you're in New Jersey there is a separate code called the Rehab Code that basically allows you to leave existing stuff as is. Like Bob said it depends on what they require on the state or local level.

 

[antenna2001]

Thanks, your cooperation is appreciated. I'll check local codes and I will call the local inspector to see what they say.

 

[growler]

Say, for example that you are called to reposition a few outlets, lights, and switches during a residential kitchen remodel. Are you responsible for checking that the branch circuit supplying the range is the correct size even though you might not have to do any work on it?

Also, if while you check the kitchen supply, you find that the bedroom circuit might be overloaded. Are you responsible for fixing that too or can you just mention it to the homeowner, finish the kitchen work, and let the homeowner make the decision of whether or not he wants you to check that?

One of the things you will have to learn when you start permitting jobs is to limit the scope of the work that you are permitting.

If all you are doing is repositioning a couple receptacles and a switch or two and maybe a light fixture this would not normally be a kitchen remodel.

In this areas if a job is permitted as kitchen remodel and everything is taken out and up-graded with new cabinates and appliances then it would have to be brought up to code. But you can do a lot of work without it being considered a remodel. It really depends on what the GC states they are doing on the building permit.

If you are not doing a kitchen remodel then don't permit the job as a kitchen remodel. List on the permit the number of switches, fixtures and receptacles you are installing in the kitchen area.

On your estimate and contract state exactly what you are doing and don't use terms like kitchen remodel unless you are actually doing the whole thing.

 

[antenna2001]

One of the things you will have to learn when you start permitting jobs is to limit the scope of the work that you are permitting.

In this areas if a job is permitted as kitchen remodel and everything is taken out and up-graded with new cabinates and appliances then it would have to be brought up to code. But you can do a lot of work without it being considered a remodel. It really depends on what the GC states they are doing on the building permit.

If you are not doing a kitchen remodel then don't permit the job as a kitchen remodel. List on the permit the number of switches, fixtures and receptacles you are installing in the kitchen area.

On your estimate and contract state exactly what you are doing and don't use terms like kitchen remodel unless you are actually doing the whole thing.

I suppose you have to tell your customer or the GC that if changes are made, a new permit would have to be applied for at their expense. Some say that changes are where money is to be made. Is this true?

 

[donf]

60% Rule

60% Rule

To the best of my knowledge, the AHJ here, Virginia Beach, VA, uses a 60% rule.

If 60% or more of the "Room" is being renovated, the electrical must be brought up to current level of code.

Usually, the GC tells me whether or not it is needed as he holds the building permit.

 

[cowboyjwc]

When most guys get in trouble with jobs like this, is when you do start working in the kitchen or such and everything gets opend up, the inspector shows up and spots that open splice in the ceiling or something and of course the "I didn't do it's" start flying.

I try to only look at the work being done, but a code violation is a code violation and even if it's not in your scope of work, it's going to be in someones, as the correction notice actually goes to the owner, so don't fix it, argue about fixing it, doesn't really matter, nothing is getting closed up until it's fixed.

Now the short answer, no, you are not responsible.

 

[Ponchik]

I suppose you have to tell your customer or the GC that if changes are made, a new permit would have to be applied for at their expense. Some say that changes are where money is to be made. Is this true?

Changes are where money can be made. But depending on the contractor/client business relationship the contractor can really make money (s***w client) or make descent money if they have a good business relationship.

Good luck with your venture.

 

[rgomes26]

As an inspector I limit my inspection to the work being permitted. BUT, if I see a hazardous wiring condition (e.g. flying/open splices, missing box covers or open KO's, etc.) I will require that they be corrected. If I do not deem it a "life safety" issue I typically wont bring it up, but many electrical violations tend to be easily classifiable as "life safety" issues.

While it isn't the contractor's fault or responsibility I will use the open permit as leverage to get a hazardous condition corrected.

 

[antenna2001]

Thanks, everyone

Thanks, everyone

Excellent points being made. I started a flow chart to make sure that I cover all of them when I make my analysis. Also, while I was wating for replies, I downloaded the city's building code and I am started to nibble on it. The city of Denver also requires to be compliant with the 2006 International Building Code so I'll have to buy the book.

There is a lot to learn and I am having fun doing it, although at times it gets overwhelming. The last few days I've worked since about 3am to 7 or 8 pm nonstop. One of those days I didn't even eat but I understand it is all part of the business. I am now on the way to meet the NECA guys and see what it takes to join their team.

Thanks again.