Is there money to be made in P.V.?

[bluesmoke...oops]

Since Chernobyl exploded and killed people, I would have to give it at least a 15 1/2.

But, since the scale only goes to 7, it's a moot point.

I'm just saying that the two are not on the same scale.

 

[Free Electron]

Well, in Michigan PV is electric work. Anything covered by the NEC has to be performed by a licensed sparky and a journeyman supervised apprentice if said apprentice is used, and we also have an apprentice to journeyman ratio that keeps the amount of apprentii in check. Also, no helpers.

When we adopt the 2011 NEC and it's new Article 694, wind turbine installation will also become 'electrical work'.

In NY you don't need a state license. However, if you work in a city or county that requires it, you need to be a licensed electrician or at least hire one to do some of the wiring. Outside the city limits you will only need an electrical inspection and hopefully the knowledge to do it correctly.

So, back to my original question is there $$ to be made in PV even in Michigan. Don't worry I'm planning on staying in New York.

 

[K8MHZ]

I'm just saying that the two are not on the same scale.

Agreed. Not even close. The Japanese incident was a 5 at most by the way I read the scale.

 

[hillbilly1]

We looked at getting in on it, but roofers are installing them dirt cheap, I don't know if they are not permiting it, or they are just not required to permit them.

 

[K8MHZ]

In NY you don't need a state license. However, if you work in a city or county that requires it, you need to be a licensed electrician or at least hire one to do some of the wiring. Outside the city limits you will only need an electrical inspection and hopefully the knowledge to do it correctly.

So, back to my original question is there $$ to be made in PV even in Michigan. Don't worry I'm planning on staying in New York.

PV is a fledgeling industry. Nonetheless, 15 years ago it was practically unheard of and now it has it's own NEC article and colleges are teaching classes on it.

At the current market demand, there isn't enough momentum for a company to be able to survive solely on PV in Michigan.

On our site evaluations, one of the first things we do is to qualify the customer. There is no sense in wasting time with a customer that has no idea how expensive a decent PV system can cost and has no desire nor the wherewithal to pony up the funds for such a system.

Right now, the only people that can afford a professionally installed PV system are those rich enough not to need one.

I do believe that will change. PV systems will likely last for many decades. When they become available as used items, the price should start creeping down to the point that people will be able to realize an attractive ROI. Right now there is no choice but to buy new.

I am not interested so much in climbing up on the roof and screwing solar cells to trusses as I am in design, code compliance, troubleshooting and maintenance.

 

[K8MHZ]

We looked at getting in on it, but roofers are installing them dirt cheap, I don't know if they are not permiting it, or they are just not required to permit them.

Roofers may be slapping panels on the roof, but I doubt they are connecting them to grid tied inverters with net metering.

AFAIC, the roofers can have the cell mounting installation. I don't want to be called every time the roof leaks, and it will if the panels aren't installed properly. But if a roofer in Michigan without proper electrical licensing so much as plugs a connector in, he is in violation of Michigan state law.

 

[hillbilly1]

Roofers may be slapping panels on the roof, but I doubt they are connecting them to grid tied inverters with net metering.

AFAIC, the roofers can have the cell mounting installation. I don't want to be called every time the roof leaks, and it will if the panels aren't installed properly. But if a roofer in Michigan without proper electrical licensing so much as plugs a connector in, he is in violation of Michigan state law.

But they are, this is not Michigan either. I think due to political correctness, the municipalities are turning their head the other way when it comes to solar. Legal or not, they are doing it.

 

[220/221]

I have done a few installations and IMO, it's not a good market. There is a lot of easier and better ways to make more money.


You could make money selling the overpriced components but the installation is brutal. I also have trouble justifying the 15+ year ROI. Who knows what shape the equipment will be in after all those years.

The concept is great but the application is still lacking.

It also makes more sense to me to construct large ground mounted installations that produce more power and would be easier to build and maintain than a hundred different rooftop systems.

 

[stevebea]

It also makes more sense to me to construct large ground mounted installations that produce more power and would be easier to build and maintain than a hundred different rooftop systems.

Heard that! Our solar crew just installed a 2000 panel array on a 25 year rubber roof that's 18 years old.

 

[satcom]

Heard that! Our solar crew just installed a 2000 panel array on a 25 year rubber roof that's 18 years old.

In some areas the land is so valuable and space so scarce that roofs are the best option, but for sure roof damage can cost plenty.

 

[tallgirl]

Solar makes roofs last longer.

I though my array was going to be a hail magnet, but apparently the panels are more robust than the shingles -- both neighbors have had roof work due to hail and I've not. If I could find $10,000 I'm not using, I'd like to put another array on the west side of the house, then tie the A/C compressor into the system. No point in being without A/C just because my neighbors don't have power ...

Now back to the topic ...

The tree huggers do the work because they believe in it philosophically -- it's easy to work on the cheap for a cause you believe in. If you don't think making electricity with less pollution and less dependence on dwindling resources is a good idea, you'll want to make more money than you can make in solar.

That said, the money is being made by the large installation companies. Which become large installation companies by first being small ones. I've sorted out dozens of bad installations over the past few years and the companies that do bad work don't get more.

On the other hand, once you have a reputation, you'll get work. I do monitoring and power management work and I just got a contact from someone in New Zealand who needs to monitor 45 remote solar power systems. I was contacted last month by someone in Kansas about monitoring solar power for traffic monitoring systems. I sold gear to Lincoln, NE last year for a wind powered traffic light backup power system. I have equipment that the FAA is looking at for solar powered airport lighting. This is all in just two years since I decided to throw my hat in the ring. In that time I've seen a number of my client's businesses grow dramatically -- but they had been at it a few years.

What you can't do is go from being an electrical contractor to a solar installer next week. I quoted a system to a guy and the piece of work that didn't require solar experience was a $2,000 panel upgrade -- the rest of the system was about $20,000. Since solar installers have their own master electricians (most of the time ...) they can do the panel upgrade themselves. So, you're shut out if you think a leaky roof is a nightmare you don't want to deal with. And I've been on roofs, and up a turbine tower or two and survived.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

...

Keep an eye on Germany. That small nation produces 49 percent of the world's solar electricity. They plan on shutting off all their nukes in just a few years. The day that happens will be a shot in the arm for the solar energy business.

I don't see solar ever playing more that a bit part in the electrical energy supply until we have a cheap effective way to store electricity. I think that is some time out in the future and not now.
I also don't see it until solar can compete with other energy sources in cost without subsidies.

 

[revolt]

I have commented on this before. In New Jersey any PV panels have to be installed by an electrical contractor. The only part roffers, solar comapnies etc can install is the racking. Once the PV panel is uncrated it falls to the EC to install it. This was confirmed by the Board of Electrical Contractors. Just protecting the trade

 

[iwire]

I have commented on this before. In New Jersey any PV panels have to be installed by an electrical contractor.

Same here in MA, but that still does not mean the licensed guys are not working for peanuts.

We have done a number of large systems and it is really more like assembly line work than electrical work.

 

[satcom]

Solar makes roofs last longer.

I though my array was going to be a hail magnet, but apparently the panels are more robust than the shingles -- both neighbors have had roof work due to hail and I've not. If I could find $10,000 I'm not using, I'd like to put another array on the west side of the house, then tie the A/C compressor into the system. No point in being without A/C just because my neighbors don't have power ...

Now back to the topic ...

The tree huggers do the work because they believe in it philosophically -- it's easy to work on the cheap for a cause you believe in. If you don't think making electricity with less pollution and less dependence on dwindling resources is a good idea, you'll want to make more money than you can make in solar.

That said, the money is being made by the large installation companies. Which become large installation companies by first being small ones. I've sorted out dozens of bad installations over the past few years and the companies that do bad work don't get more.

On the other hand, once you have a reputation, you'll get work. I do monitoring and power management work and I just got a contact from someone in New Zealand who needs to monitor 45 remote solar power systems. I was contacted last month by someone in Kansas about monitoring solar power for traffic monitoring systems. I sold gear to Lincoln, NE last year for a wind powered traffic light backup power system. I have equipment that the FAA is looking at for solar powered airport lighting. This is all in just two years since I decided to throw my hat in the ring. In that time I've seen a number of my client's businesses grow dramatically -- but they had been at it a few years.

What you can't do is go from being an electrical contractor to a solar installer next week. I quoted a system to a guy and the piece of work that didn't require solar experience was a $2,000 panel upgrade -- the rest of the system was about $20,000. Since solar installers have their own master electricians (most of the time ...) they can do the panel upgrade themselves. So, you're shut out if you think a leaky roof is a nightmare you don't want to deal with. And I've been on roofs, and up a turbine tower or two and survived.

You are out there selling a target market, that is not what most electrical contractors do, they are more likely to bid the crumbs of a solar marketing broker, which will not help grow their company, but just keep the ship above water, if they are really serious about a solar business your compass IMO is the better route.
Much of the roof damage happens in the residential market where some of the flash in the pan solar brokers and sales people hire a crew off the street and give them an intense one hour installation course and turn them loose, but most of the commercial and industrial projects are well footed and erected with a bit of good engineering.

 

[Flex]

Yes, the brokers not the ECs.

Couldnt be more true

 

[Free Electron]

36 posts and no ones finds PV very profitable for a contractor.

 

[bluesmoke...oops]

The tree huggers do the work because they believe in it philosophically -- it's easy to work on the cheap for a cause you believe in. If you don't think making electricity with less pollution and less dependence on dwindling resources is a good idea, you'll want to make more money than you can make in solar.

That does bring up the fun question of how long it takes any "green" item to offset the emissions from it's production.

 

[Free Electron]

That does bring up the fun question of how long it takes any "green" item to offset the emissions from it's production.

I was going to comment on that sentence as well, but not from your point.
We all want less pollution and less dependence. Energy has to be made cheaply and contractors that install systems need to prosper as well.
Solar is a great idea, I just don't see were the risks out way the rewards for me and I consider myself a semi tree hugger. Ha Ha.

 

[c_picard]

Interesting (albeit meandering) post....

Brokers (renewable energy credits) are making money.
EC's will have a hard time competing with the hacks and the nationwide integrators, but for different reasons.

The hacks do just that(hack), I have worked with and for them, but not for long.
The Nationwides have operations so streamlined that an EC part-timing in PV could never compete.
For example...with fully compliant OSHA safeguards in place, a two person crews are installing 5kw resi systems in less than 4 crew days. This includes fully suiting up for even removing panel covers, fall restraint or arrest,etc.

In the last five years labor costs have gone from a small piece of the puzzle to being a major factor in margins.
Solar in the northeast is tough because natural gas is cheap, but that said grid parity is not that far off.

...and for the record, if case you haven't noticed, everyone is working for peanuts these days, good for you if you're not, what's your secret? Assembly line work? What about all those strip malls we built? 1000's of 2x4 flourescents? I know I had to plug and switch for weeks on end in all those hotels!!