NEC code for Electric Signs

Status
Not open for further replies.

Linford

Member
Can I build a lighted sign that is compliant with NEC code without it being UL listed if the city does not require UL listing - even though they have adopted the NEC code?
Citing NEC code 600.3 Listing
"Electric Signs, section signs and outline lighting - fixed, mobile or portable - shall be listed and installed in conformance with that listing, unless otherwise approved by special permission."
 

Dennis Alwon

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
All lights shall be UL listed. Now if the city has an amendment to the NEC then I guess you could otherwise I would say NO.
 

renosteinke

Senior Member
Location
NE Arkansas
First off, it's not only UL that can provide the 'listing.'

Then there's the matter of whether you want a single sign evaluated, or if you want your shop to be a 'listed sign shop.'

Nevada towns have plenty of signs, and many sign shops. Nevada towns have adopted the latest NEC. Yet, very few sign shops are 'listed' shops, and the towns are not enforcing the NEC provisions. No local ammendments - they're just ignoring the issue.

I'd also look into just what is a 'sign.' There's a world of difference, codewise, between a beer sign you hang in the window, and something you hang from the face of your building.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
I'd also look into just what is a 'sign.' There's a world of difference, codewise, between a beer sign you hang in the window, and something you hang from the face of your building.

Not sure what you mean, if it is electrical powered and it is a sign it has to be listed per the NEC, this applies to a 60' long outdoor sign or simply a small 'Budweiser beer' sign you hang in a window.
 

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
In the Chicago suburbs the requirement for the signs to be listed is enforced. In a few cases large unlisted signs were installed and the owner had the choice of having them field evaluated or removing them. Both are somewhat costly options. The enforcement is based on the rule in the NEC that requires the signs to be listed products.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
Where am the first question out of the inspectors mouth will be about the signs listing, and next will be about the disconnecting means.
 

Linford

Member
We are a UL listed sign shop and the signs we build are UL listed.
My difficulty is: Our city does not require UL listing and is allowing other shops to install non-listed signs. If we (to save money and be competitive in this market) do
not list our signs, does the city then assume liability if there is an electrical problem down the road - since they are allowing signs to be put up without UL listing?
Back to my question: Can I build signs in compliance with the NEC code in my city/county without UL listing; or am I responsible for following the NEC code
even though the city is undermining me.
 

bphgravity

Senior Member
Location
Florida
If the law requires compliance with a rule or code, it must be complied with, even if not enforced.

Think of it this way. Say the speed limit on a highway is 50 MPH. Any speed above 50 is illegal even if the local police department doesn't pull you over until you are driving 10 miles over the speed limit.

Keep in mind the local city officials are NOT the only AHJ's. The insurance / underwriters of the property owner are AHJ's. The fire safety officials are AHJ's. There are federal, state, and other local officials that can be AHJ's.

If the local building department is not following the law by allowing contractors and installers to break the law, they need to be reported to their AHJ. Even bosses have bosses...
 

renosteinke

Senior Member
Location
NE Arkansas
The seeming all-encompasing language at the start of 600 notwithstanding, it is not required that EVERY sign be 'listed.'

Disregarding the red herring of a sign that has no electric power, field-installed outlines, etc., need not be listed (600.3). In practical terms, the AHJ has no role once the final is signed off, and thus no control over what gets plugged in to the sign receptacle. It's beyond the scope of his authority.

My point regarding only some signs being covered by code was not, however, directed at the NEC. There are plenty of other codes that can come into play, and the NEC is but one of them. Unless we wish to send the OP off to another forum, we need to recognize these other codes.

"Listing" is simply irrelevant with many signs. I care not what sticker is placed on the sign; if you don't hang the thing in accordance with sign codes, you have a violation ... and probably a sign in danger of falling. That's where a 'beer sign' differs from something you hang over the sidewalk. Even a sign that is nothing but a painted board needs to comply with these other codes - though listing is not required. Your lowly beer sign, even if neon and listed, is exempt from these sign codes.

To assert that failure to enforce the code is malfeasance on the part of the AHJ is an argument that might have some merit. Just as important is that we recognize that 'listing' does not relieve the AHJ of his responsibilities. There appears to be an attitude that all the inspector need do is look for the sticker. Some of the most immediately dangerous things I've seen were composed entirely of 'listed' parts, installed according to the listing limitations and installation instructions. Some even had a PE stamp on them (Kansas City Regency Hyatt, anyone?)

I disagree with this 'listing' fetish the code seems to have developed over the last few cycles. Good heavens, we are a CONSTRUCTION trade. We MAKE things. Not everything has to come out of a box, complete, from some factory.

Read the fine print and the disclaimers, and you'll make the uncomfortable discovery that the 'listing' firm promises NOTHING as to a specific item. The sticker is no guarantee that the item meets any standard, or that the standard has any relevance (or wisdom). All that UL sticker means is that, at some point, a sample of the product was evaluated, and that sample met their standard, on that particular day. All that sticker means is that UL got the check, and sends someone out there from time to time for another one.

I will disagree that insurance underwriters are "AHJ's" Insurance is simply a private business transaction - they are no more your AHJ than you are the AHJ when you buy your morning coffee. Insurance is a simple market force - unless we muddy the waters by requiring someone to buy it. Mandated insurance is neither a market force, nor good government- but that's another discussion.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
That is a very nice diatribe but you are giving out false information.

If you are under the NEC any and all electrically powered signs must be listed.

You can call it a fetish but it is the law once the NEC is adopted by an area unless they amend it.
 
Last edited:

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
...Back to my question: Can I build signs in compliance with the NEC code in my city/county without UL listing; or am I responsible for following the NEC code even though the city is undermining me.
It is not a code violation to make or sell an unlisted sign...it is just a code violation to install one. We have the same issue with the extra flexible LFMC which is very commonly used, but is not a listed product and the code has required the use of listed LFMC since the 96 code. When I asked a manufacturer about this at a trade show, he told me what I said above. It is not a violation to make it or to sell it, it is only a violation to install it and as long as there are customers that want to buy it we will continue to make it.
 

Linford

Member
It seems to me I need to try to get the city and county here to start enforcing
the UL listing for electric signs so all sign makers are operating on the same playing field. Does anybody know if there is a way to get a clarification or a ruling from the governing body of the NEC so I can then take that to my city officials? The last time I talked to the city official, he told me he thought the code was unclear and he had authority to override the NEC code. So before I go back to him, I would like to know exactly what the code's intent is and why does it allow for a special permission override of the NEC 600.3 code.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top