Tried to do the right thing; got hammered instead

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Jon456

Senior Member
Location
Colorado
I got called in to a residential rennovation to run network, phone, and some "smart" lighting circuits. A well-seasoned crew were doing the bulk of the construction, including a number of new electrical circuits and a sub-panel upgrade. I'm sort-of the "new" guy (3 years with the company) and I rarely work with this crew.

First thing I noticed on the job site was that the sub-panel (that had been purchased, but not yet installed) was Main Lugs Only. So I gave a call to the project manager and told him they would need a new panel with a main breaker.

Later, a satellite dish was added and the installer routed the cables in a jumbled mess and had placed two splitters in a location next to the electrical sub-panel which would have resulted in the splitters being sealed behind sheetrock. Since I was putting in a central wiring panel for the network & phone, I suggested that I should also relocate the sattelite feeds and CATV runs to that location, not just to keep things neat and organized, but also to allow flexibility if the owner decided to change which rooms the dish receivers would be located in (or if he wanted to add another). I was told to do it.

When I was doing that work, I discovered that the satellite mast and the feed cables were not grounded. I was looking at a way to ground them to the grounding bar in the electrical subpanel when I noticed that the GEC and GES were not code compliant. The GEC was a #8 stranded wire that left the 125A service sub-panel and was landed on a natural gas pipe (galvanized) above the ceiling, using a weaver clamp. A second #8 stranded wire was placed in that same weaver clamp connection on the gas pipe and routed to the water supply pipe (copper), also in the ceiling; the GEC was connected to the water pipe with a second weaver clamp. There were no other electrodes.

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I counted five code violations:

250.52(A)(1): Connections to water pipe must be within first 5ft from where it enters building
(in this case, it was 13ft)

250.52(B)(1): Gas pipe not permissible as a GES electrode

250.53(D)(2): Supplemental electrode(s) required

250.68(A): Connections must be accessible
(in this case, they will be inaccessible after the sheetrock is installed)

250.70: Only one conductor per clamp unless listed for more

So while I was talking to the project manager about the satellite dish issues, I mentioned that the sub-panel grounding was not code compliant. At that time, I didn't know who had done the work. The manager told me that the electrical had already passed inspection, but he would discuss my concerns with "Joe" (not his real name) who had done the install. I rarely work with Joe, but I know him: he happens to be the senior man on their construction team. Crap... I just realized that this was not going to go well. So I tried to persude the manager not to talk it over with Joe, hoping he would just let me correct the problems. But the genie was already out of the bottle. This was on Friday morning (with the manager starting his two weeks vacation as the end of the day).

So Monday, I was on the job site finishing my work and Joe drives up. Needless to say, he was not happy and proceeded to rip me a new one. He told me in no uncertain terms to just do my own job and keep out of the work of others. He also told me that his work had already passed inspection and that only ONE person's opinion mattered: the inspector's. Of course, nothing was fixed or changed. So the only thing I accomplished by pointing out the errors was to screw up my working relationship with Joe.

In retrospect, I realize I did not "play" this very well. I should have asked around to find out who did the work first. But then what? If I had tried to be diplomatic and raised the issues directly with Joe, he still would have told me that the work had already passed inspection and to mind my own business. As far as I can tell, it was a no-win situation. :(
 
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Dennis Alwon

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
Well if you call the supervisors out on things, you better be correct. Why do you think a sub panel needs a main?
 

roger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Fl
Occupation
Retired Electrician
Not trying to beat you up but,

  • What is a "service sub-panel"?
  • The connection for bonding a water piping system does not have to be within 5' of the entrance, see 250.104
  • Was the gas piping just being bonded per 250.104?
  • Why would a supplemental grounding electrode (or as Hendrix questions, any grounding electrode) be needed for a sub-panel?
Roger
 

Jon456

Senior Member
Location
Colorado
Sorry I wasn't clear. This work is in a detached building (guest house) with a 4-wire underground feeder to the sub-panel. There are more than six circuit breakers in the panel. Main needed for disconnecting means (225.31, 32, & 33). Buildings supplied by feeders shall have a grouding electrode or GES installed (250.32).

Btw, "Joe" is not my supervisor.
 

Jon456

Senior Member
Location
Colorado
What is a "service sub-panel"?

I wrote "125A service sub-panel" but when I just re-read my post, I noticed that the line break occured between "125A" and "service". In any case, this is what I meant: (125A service) (sub-panel).
 

roger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Fl
Occupation
Retired Electrician
Sorry I wasn't clear. This work is in a detached building (guest house) with a 4-wire underground feeder to the sub-panel.

Well, that does change things a bit.

Roger
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
I wrote "125A service sub-panel" but when I just re-read my post, I noticed that the line break occured between "125A" and "service". In any case, this is what I meant: (125A service) (sub-panel).

It is not a service it is a building fed by a feeder.

Yes it needs a main disconnect.

Just because it is a 125 amp MLO panel does not mean GEC is sized on 125 amps. What size and type conductors are the feeder conductors? That is what the GEC is sized to.

As far as how you should have handled things, that is a tougher call. You need to consider how much experience you may or may not have. If you don't have a lot of experience you maybe should have gone about it by asking questions. If you were wrong you may have gotten an explanation of what the situation is. Just telling them it is wrong may be seen as offensive and you better be absolutely certain you are right.

That said there likely are some code violations on this install, and other things you mention we really need a little more info before we can say they are wrong.
 

Jon456

Senior Member
Location
Colorado
Just because it is a 125 amp MLO panel does not mean GEC is sized on 125 amps. What size and type conductors are the feeder conductors? That is what the GEC is sized to.

I realize that the GEC is sized by the feeder conductors. But I never questioned the size of the GEC: I believe that the #8 wire is correct. I didn't pull out the feeders and measure them (can't read any markings), but they are copper and look like #2 to me.

As far as how you should have handled things, that is a tougher call. You need to consider how much experience you may or may not have. If you don't have a lot of experience you maybe should have gone about it by asking questions. If you were wrong you may have gotten an explanation of what the situation is. Just telling them it is wrong may be seen as offensive and you better be absolutely certain you are right.

Discussing this, I recall a conversation that occurred about a year ago: one of the other workers on this crew had asked me if it was permissible to use a natural gas line as a grounding electrode. I told him it was not. He probably has seen this happen before and suspected it was not correct, thus wanted to get my input.

That said there likely are some code violations on this install, and other things you mention we really need a little more info before we can say they are wrong.

What additional info?
 

Jon456

Senior Member
Location
Colorado
You cleared up the GEC size, you never confirmed whether or not the water pipe is an electrode or if it is just interior piping. Connection needs to be accessible for either though.
Well, I suppose there are two ways to look at this: either the green wire in the photos is a bonding wire to the gas and water pipes (in which case, there is no GEC nor GES for the sub-panel), or the green wire is the GEC and thus violates the code sections I referenced in my original post.

Either way, the install is not NEC compliant.
 

petersonra

Senior Member
Location
Northern illinois
Occupation
engineer
Well, I suppose there are two ways to look at this: either the green wire in the photos is a bonding wire to the gas and water pipes (in which case, there is no GEC nor GES for the sub-panel), or the green wire is the GEC and thus violates the code sections I referenced in my original post.

Either way, the install is not NEC compliant.

I have often wondered why it is required to bond a metal gas pipe but it cannot be used as part of a GES. How do the electrons know the difference?

If this is a new building, the code will likely require the use of a CEE as a GE.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
I have often wondered why it is required to bond a metal gas pipe but it cannot be used as part of a GES. How do the electrons know the difference?

If this is a new building, the code will likely require the use of a CEE as a GE.

The elecrons don't know the difference. Natural gas systems usually have dielectric fittings on meters and this interrupts continuity so the underground piping is not electrically connected to the interior piping. This prevents the underground piping from inadvertantly becoming an electrode. Interior piping is usually grounded even if you specifically do not run a bonding jumper to the piping. If appliances connected to gas are also connected to electricity then the equipment grounding conductor will be bonding the gas pipe through wherever the pipe is attached to the appliance.
 

Sierrasparky

Senior Member
Location
USA
Occupation
Electrician ,contractor
You have a tough situation. I would refrain from stating that someone did something wrong as apposed to ask how you are supposed to do it. Let the supervisor see the problem on their own.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
The problem is that I'm the only one who sees the problem. :eek:hmy:


The other problem is the inspector that passed it. The supervisor may or may not realize what is wrong but if inspector would fail it as should have been done, the supervisor would change his ways.
 

Sierrasparky

Senior Member
Location
USA
Occupation
Electrician ,contractor
The other problem is the inspector that passed it. The supervisor may or may not realize what is wrong but if inspector would fail it as should have been done, the supervisor would change his ways.
Yea so what do you suggest , I run into this sort of stuff all the time.
This guy is risking his job... That should not be the case.:eek:hmy:
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Yea so what do you suggest , I run into this sort of stuff all the time.
This guy is risking his job... That should not be the case.:eek:hmy:

I run into a lot of crap all the time myself, inspectors are pretty good around here, there is lots of work not required to be inspected though. When you come in behind those that were not inspected you have decisions to make when adding or modifying something that if the original work would have been done right would not be much of a decision.

You have to learn how to deal with things, there is nothing wrong with letting your opinion be known if you think something is not right, but you have to watch which toes you step on or they will kick you. If you are low on chain of command no one is going to listen to you, that is just the way it is no matter what your job is or how much education you may have. If you really feel your coworkers are incompetent and unwilling to do things right maybe you should consider working someplace else if the opportunity comes up.

As for inspector if confrontations do not work take pictures of violations and write up your own "correction notice" and send them to the inspectors boss, chief inspector, or whoever is the head guy. May not have any immediate results but if you see enough and send them enough images of bad installations maybe they will eventually start to realize they are not getting their job done correctly. How things get handled will really depend on how much abuse of power is involved in the department. Maybe join a trade association in your area and present some of these problems to them. Hopefully there are enough members that do care to do the right things.
 
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