Debate again over Licensing of Administrators and Journeyman

[brother]

Its seems this is gonna keep popping back up in my area. Apparently since the 'slow' economy has hurt alot of contractors, its starting to get a little nasty.

In my area, a person can get an Electrical Adminstrators card and an Electrical journeymans card (2 seperate cards). The issue is that to get the journeyman's card you have to have worked directly under a licensed journeyman for 8000 'documented' hours, basically 4 years or longer doing electrical installations.

Every contractor is required to have an Electrical Admistrator to be in business, but there is NO prerequisite to get an Admin card, basically just walk in off the street and pass the test (if you study enough). So you can have an 'apprentice' who has an admin card.

The Electrical Administrator's job is to ensure that the Electrical Contractor's work complies with all the appropriate electrical laws and rules. Basically overseeing journeyman to ensure the work is code compliant. So you can have a '1st year apprentice' with an admin card, who is to 'oversee' the journeyman's work to ensure it is code compliant. LOL. This is from the website.
Note: Electrical Administrator certification does not enable the holder to do electrical installations

They want to change that and make it required for an Adminstrator to become a journeyman before they can get that card. The debate has increased here lately. If it was a 'Master Electrician' card this would not be an issue, one already has to have the hours to get that Master card.
Whats your opinion, and how does your area do the licensing??

 

[knoppdude]

Its seems this is gonna keep popping back up in my area. Apparently since the 'slow' economy has hurt alot of contractors, its starting to get a little nasty.

In my area, a person can get an Electrical Adminstrators card and an Electrical journeymans card (2 seperate cards). The issue is that to get the journeyman's card you have to have worked directly under a licensed journeyman for 8000 'documented' hours, basically 4 years or longer doing electrical installations.

Every contractor is required to have an Electrical Admistrator to be in business, but there is NO prerequisite to get an Admin card, basically just walk in off the street and pass the test (if you study enough). So you can have an 'apprentice' who has an admin card.

The Electrical Administrator's job is to ensure that the Electrical Contractor's work complies with all the appropriate electrical laws and rules. Basically overseeing journeyman to ensure the work is code compliant. So you can have a '1st year apprentice' with an admin card, who is to 'oversee' the journeyman's work to ensure it is code compliant. LOL. This is from the website.
Note: Electrical Administrator certification does not enable the holder to do electrical installations

They want to change that and make it required for an Adminstrator to become a journeyman before they can get that card. The debate has increased here lately. If it was a 'Master Electrician' card this would not be an issue, one already has to have the hours to get that Master card.
Whats your opinion, and how does your area do the licensing??

I think the system you are stuck with is bad, because the Administrator doesn't need to have the work hours and school, just pass a test. I think it is good that the powers are debating the issue. You are right about the Master Electrician card, and this is how it should be in every state. Here in California, there are apprentices, journeymen, and electrical contractors. From what I have gathered from the posts, the tests are getting tougher, which I think they should, for the following reason; it shows a higher level of dedication to safety, and the trade, on the part of the electrician. I don't mean to imply that the people who may be top notch electricians, but are poor test takers are bad electricians because they have trouble with written tests. If they pass, their score counts as much as any. I also think the test should be 50 percent hands on, this would even the field. This is just my opinion, but it is based on my few years in the trade.

 

[infinity]

Its seems this is gonna keep popping back up in my area. Apparently since the 'slow' economy has hurt alot of contractors, its starting to get a little nasty.

Where is your area?

 

[tom baker]

They want to change that and make it required for an Adminstrator to become a journeyman before they can get that card. The debate has increased here lately. If it was a 'Master Electrician' card this would not be an issue, one already has to have the hours to get that Master card.
Whats your opinion, and how does your area do the licensing??

(This topic applies to Washington State only)
I haven't heard that, I follow the Washington Electrical Labor and Industries issues closely.
The administrator test is a harder test than the journeyman or specialty certifications, and the administrator can't touch the tools. I get a lot of calls from persons who can't pass the administrator test.
There was no legislation introduced last session to even try and change the electrical laws for what you are proposing. Keep in mind administrators have only been required since 1984 and before that, a shoe salesman could be an electrical contractor.

So who are you hearing that from?
Tom
Washington State Master Electrician and Instructor

 

[brother]

Where is your area?

Its Washington State

 

[brother]

(This topic applies to Washington State only)
I haven't heard that, I follow the Washington Electrical Labor and Industries issues closely.
The administrator test is a harder test than the journeyman or specialty certifications, and the administrator can't touch the tools. I get a lot of calls from persons who can't pass the administrator test.
There was no legislation introduced last session to even try and change the electrical laws for what you are proposing. Keep in mind administrators have only been required since 1984 and before that, a shoe salesman could be an electrical contractor.

So who are you hearing that from?
Tom
Washington State Master Electrician and Instructor

I've only heard this from some other electricians and contractors. I know there were no OFFICIAL proposals to change this yet. But with the economy the way it is , I believe this may be a sudden proposal brought forth. Even if the Administrator test is as hard as you claim Tom, you have to admit when you really think about it that it makes no sense to have someone supervising and telling journeyman whats code and not and they have not had any real field experience and they are ones responsible to the state for the electrical compliance. I know when Im working in the field and having questions about code I really got a grasp and understanding better when I was an apprentice when I actually did the work. As always, Time will tell if it will ever change.

 

[charlie b]

My opinion is that there is not a problem that is in need of fixing. But then, I happen to be one of those who became licensed as an Electrical Administrator (01 – General), without ever working a single hour as an electrician. Perhaps being an engineer helped me with the calculations portion of the test. But I had to take the admin portion twice; as Tom said, it is not easy.

I don’t have a problem with a trainee acting as the company’s administrator, and thereby having a specific degree of authority over the journeyman who is supervising the trainee’s work. Keep in mind that there are two separate skill sets at play here. Through the 8000 hour work requirement, the journeyman will have learned means, methods, process, tools, and a host of other things that are all related to the installation of electrical systems. But a person who has done nothing more than study the admin and safety rules would not need to have much experience in those things, in order to be able to recognize that a co-worker is using a ladder in an unsafe manner, or has failed to properly tag out a component, or is working on an expired license, or is working without a permit, or has failed to request an inspection prior to allowing an installation to be covered by sheetrock.

 

[iwire]

Luckily they do not hand out licenses around here to those that have not put in the time to deserve one.

Here someone in the company must be person that put in the full time to get a license.

 

[charlie b]

Are we talking about the same thing, Bob? In Washington State (like most areas, I presume), they don't give licenses to install electrical equipment (i.e., a "journeyman license") to anyone who has not put in the time to have earned one. But an "Electrical Administrator" license (which does not authorize the person to perform electrical work) does not have any time-related requirements. A company's Administrator is responsible for code compliance and safe work practices. It is an administrative position, not a technical position.

 

[tom baker]

A problem here in WA is the contractors are letting our AHJs' - Labor and Industries Electrical - be the quality control instead of the administrator. In fact, a majority of the violations are caused by a small percentage of the contractors.

 

[electrofelon]

I just passed my WA administrators on Saturday. Just to add some information to the discussion for those who dont know, the test is three parts, State codes/rules/policies, NEC, and major load calcs. The journeyman test is pretty much the same thing but without the load calc portion. I thought the first two sections were cake, I only missed one from each but I did fail the load calcs the first time, got a perfect the next time. But anyway back to the OP, I do think the electrical administrator thing is a bit goofy. I guess that means now that I passed my test, I am goofy?

 

[brother]

I just passed my WA administrators on Saturday. Just to add some information to the discussion for those who dont know, the test is three parts, State codes/rules/policies, NEC, and major load calcs. The journeyman test is pretty much the same thing but without the load calc portion. I thought the first two sections were cake, I only missed one from each but I did fail the load calcs the first time, got a perfect the next time. But anyway back to the OP, I do think the electrical administrator thing is a bit goofy. I guess that means now that I passed my test, I am goofy?

LOL, I wouldn't call you goofy. I just see you as someone who had found the 'loophole' in the goofy law that allows people to get by.

 

[brother]

Are we talking about the same thing, Bob? In Washington State (like most areas, I presume), they don't give licenses to install electrical equipment (i.e., a "journeyman license") to anyone who has not put in the time to have earned one. But an "Electrical Administrator" license (which does not authorize the person to perform electrical work) does not have any time-related requirements. A company's Administrator is responsible for code compliance and safe work practices. It is an administrative position, not a technical position.

I recall the journeyman test I took had alot of code in it, basically if I didn't know the NEC, I would not have passed it years ago!

Even though this problem may not be wide spread, Im gonna have to agree with some of the other guys(electricians and contractors alike) that are complaining about it, an Administrator for electrical really should have some real field time experience, just because of the nature of our job. I know I have had to 'correct' an administrator license holder on some of their code understandings, even let them come out on the job to see a real life example to give them a better understanding.