SHUTDOWNS????

[Alwayslearningelec]

I see on drawings sometimes say to include "necessary shutdowns". If you had a live board feeding equipment that had to stay running and they wanted to add a feed(breaker or switch already in panel) to a piece of equipment would the entire board need to be shutdown to do this work. If the switch or breaker is in the off position can't it be worked on?

Also would the scenario change if the breaker or switch was not in the panel? THen I think a shutdown would be required. Am I correct? THanks.

 

[zog]

Define "had to stay running". You mean like it runs a cooling system for a spent nuclear fuel pond? Or do you mean, it is just not convienent to shut it down?

 

[Alwayslearningelec]

Define "had to stay running". You mean like it runs a cooling system for a spent nuclear fuel pond? Or do you mean, it is just not convienent to shut it down?

Well when would a live boards main breaker need to be shutdown when doding the work I described...or could you tie it without shutting the main down?

 

[rbalex]

There are fundamentally two conditions where working "live" is permitted.

1. It is actually more dangerous to kill the equipment (cost or inconvenience are not considerations)
2. It is impossible to carry out a specific task, such as trouble shooting or voltage testing, on dead equipment.

In both cases proper PPE and/or work procedures must be adhered to.

 

[zog]

Well when would a live boards main breaker need to be shutdown when doding the work I described...or could you tie it without shutting the main down?

Depends on the distances, you should read the NFPA 70E, it is very clear about working distances for this type of question.

 

[hillbilly1]

Define "had to stay running". You mean like it runs a cooling system for a spent nuclear fuel pond? Or do you mean, it is just not convienent to shut it down?

You know, even with a cooling system for a spent nuclear fuel pond, there has to be redundancys, because nothing lasts forever, so I would think if something was that critical, it would have redundant systems in case the primary failed. So I would think there would never be an instance that something could not be shut down?

 

[zog]

You know, even with a cooling system for a spent nuclear fuel pond, there has to be redundancys, because nothing lasts forever, so I would think if something was that critical, it would have redundant systems in case the primary failed. So I would think there would never be an instance that something could not be shut down?

There are redundant systems, which are required to be functional by the NRC. Special conditions need to be established before you can take one of those systems off line. But your point is valid, everything can be shut down with proper planning.

 

[petersonra]

You can usually minimize the disruption and cost of his kind of work with proper planning but most of the time you are not going to be able to work on this kind of equipment without a shutdown, at least not "legally".

I expect over time that a lot of equipment and system redesigns will include features to help minmize the problem. But it is not going to go away.

I would not be surprised to see some relief to the more onerous provisions where the risk is very low.

 

[zog]

You can usually minimize the disruption and cost of his kind of work with proper planning but most of the time you are not going to be able to work on this kind of equipment without a shutdown, at least not "legally".

I expect over time that a lot of equipment and system redesigns will include features to help minmize the problem. But it is not going to go away.

I would not be surprised to see some relief to the more onerous provisions where the risk is very low.

Arc rated switchgear, remote racking systems, maintenence settings, etc.. All part of new designs and also availble for older systems. Our systems are getting safer.

Now I do agree that things will change, I think HRC 0 and 1 tasks should be allowed with the proper PPE and procedures. I don't think HRC 3/4 tasks should ever be done energized, if you have to be wearing a full flash suit you probally should not be doing it at all.

 

[Rockyd]

I see on drawings sometimes say to include "necessary shutdowns". If you had a live board feeding equipment that had to stay running and they wanted to add a feed(breaker or switch already in panel) to a piece of equipment would the entire board need to be shutdown to do this work. If the switch or breaker is in the off position can't it be worked on?

Also would the scenario change if the breaker or switch was not in the panel? THen I think a shutdown would be required. Am I correct? THanks.

Read the above posts carefully. Lots of good advice being given. Working live for what purpose? Our electrical community is still reeling from this -


Electrical apprentice dies after shock and fall at work site

An Anchorage electrical apprentice died after she was shocked late Monday and fell while working in Midtown.


Read more: http://www.thenewstribune.com/2011/06/21/1715306/electrical-apprentice-dies-after.html#ixzz1RizqITnx
By CASEY GROVE
casey.grove@adn.com

Published: 06/22/1112:52 pm | Updated: 06/22/1112:52 pm


Read more: http://www.thenewstribune.com/2011/06/21/1715306/electrical-apprentice-dies-after.html#ixzz1RizXd6R4


An Anchorage electrical worker died after she was shocked late Monday while working in Midtown, police said.

Raven Electric employee Abigail Caudle, 26, was at a job site in the 4000 block of Credit Union Drive about 11:30 p.m. when the accident occurred, police spokesman Lt. Dave Parker said.

"She fell when she got shocked, about nine feet," Parker said.

Caudle was an apprentice electrician working with two journeymen on an electrical remodel, said Don Lederhos, president of Raven Electric.

Lederhos declined to comment in detail about what happened and said it's unclear exactly what killed Caudle.

"We really don't know, and basically, yes, there was an accident and at this time the accident is under investigation," he said.

Caudle's mother, Marianne Burke, said her daughter had worked for Raven Electric between six months and a year. Caudle was also a volunteer at ChangePoint church, Burke said.


Read more: http://www.thenewstribune.com/2011/06/21/1715306/electrical-apprentice-dies-after.html#ixzz1RizJyXYX

 

[Alwayslearningelec]

You can usually minimize the disruption and cost of his kind of work with proper planning but most of the time you are not going to be able to work on this kind of equipment without a shutdown, at least not "legally".

I expect over time that a lot of equipment and system redesigns will include features to help minmize the problem. But it is not going to go away.

I would not be surprised to see some relief to the more onerous provisions where the risk is very low.

Ok, so how would you define a shutdown in your terms. Would you say that is killing the entire board?

 

[Alwayslearningelec]

Arc rated switchgear, remote racking systems, maintenence settings, etc.. All part of new designs and also availble for older systems. Our systems are getting safer.

Now I do agree that things will change, I think HRC 0 and 1 tasks should be allowed with the proper PPE and procedures. I don't think HRC 3/4 tasks should ever be done energized, if you have to be wearing a full flash suit you probally should not be doing it at all.

What is HRC???

 

[Alwayslearningelec]

Read the above posts carefully. Lots of good advice being given. Working live for what purpose? Our electrical community is still reeling from this -


Electrical apprentice dies after shock and fall at work site

An Anchorage electrical apprentice died after she was shocked late Monday and fell while working in Midtown.

Very sad!!!! My prayers to her friends and family...


Read more: http://www.thenewstribune.com/2011/06/21/1715306/electrical-apprentice-dies-after.html#ixzz1RizqITnx
By CASEY GROVE
casey.grove@adn.com

Published: 06/22/1112:52 pm | Updated: 06/22/1112:52 pm


Read more: http://www.thenewstribune.com/2011/06/21/1715306/electrical-apprentice-dies-after.html#ixzz1RizXd6R4


An Anchorage electrical worker died after she was shocked late Monday while working in Midtown, police said.

Raven Electric employee Abigail Caudle, 26, was at a job site in the 4000 block of Credit Union Drive about 11:30 p.m. when the accident occurred, police spokesman Lt. Dave Parker said.

"She fell when she got shocked, about nine feet," Parker said.

Caudle was an apprentice electrician working with two journeymen on an electrical remodel, said Don Lederhos, president of Raven Electric.

Lederhos declined to comment in detail about what happened and said it's unclear exactly what killed Caudle.

"We really don't know, and basically, yes, there was an accident and at this time the accident is under investigation," he said.

Caudle's mother, Marianne Burke, said her daughter had worked for Raven Electric between six months and a year. Caudle was also a volunteer at ChangePoint church, Burke said.


Read more: http://www.thenewstribune.com/2011/06/21/1715306/electrical-apprentice-dies-after.html#ixzz1RizJyXYX

Very sad!!!! My prayers to her and her family

 

[Rockyd]

Google is your friend --

HRC

 

[zog]

Ok, so how would you define a shutdown in your terms. Would you say that is killing the entire board?

It depends, will the work occur within the LAB or AFB of the energized parts of the board?

 

[Alwayslearningelec]

Google is your friend --

HRC

Thanks.

 

[Alwayslearningelec]

It depends, will the work occur within the LAB or AFB of the energized parts of the board?

Guess I should google LAB or AFB??

 

[zog]

Guess I should google LAB or AFB??

I thought your plant had 70E training?!?

AFB = arc flash boundary, should be on equipment arc flash label
LAB - Limitied approach boundary, a shock boundary, crossing it defines when you are doing "Energized work".

 

[Fulthrotl]

You know, even with a cooling system for a spent nuclear fuel pond, there has to be redundancys, because nothing lasts forever, so I would think if something was that critical, it would have redundant systems in case the primary failed. So I would think there would never be an instance that something could not be shut down?

when there is a massive earthquake, things can be effectively shut down.

 

[petersonra]

Google is your friend --

HRC

I love our firewall.

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