Solar system installations

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pdmtn

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chattanoogaTN signal mountain
In your areas at what point do the Electricians get involve in the installation of Solar Panel Systems ? Do you require the Electricians install the Panels,wiring, AC/DC, disconnects and all assocaited parts .... Art 690 (2008) is clear as mud
Thanks for your input.
 
Define 'electrician'. ;)

I've never been on a job where the installation of panels and the wiring of arrays was required to be done by someone who is a certified-by-the-state electrician, although I've run into or heard of situations where an electrical union insisted that part was their job, or where a wage law required that anyone doing those things be paid an electrician's rate.

Other than that, what I have seen has run the gamut. I've worked on plenty of small residential installs where no one was a certified electrician, although usually the crew lead was studying for a test. OTOH, one company I worked for stopped having its own employees do anything below the roof and started hiring EC's as subs to do those parts. It can be much a business question as a technical one.

The size of the system matters a lot. No company in its right mind will attempt a commercial scale install without having at least one certified journeyman electrician on site at all times.
 
pdmtn said:
In your areas at what point do the Electricians get involved in the installation of Solar Panel Systems ? Do you require the Electricians install the Panels,wiring, AC/DC, disconnects and all associated parts .... Art 690 (2008) is clear as mud
Thanks for your input.
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The NEC won't address this. It's a combination of AHJ requirements, system size, commercial vs. residential, off grid vs. grid tied, etc. There is no cut-and-dried answer to your question other than "it depends".
 
Kentucky, Tennessee and Ohio and 24 other states.

Kentucky, Tennessee and Ohio and 24 other states.

I know with a 100% degree of certainty that it is required at the state level to have all Photovoltaic systems installed by a qualified licensed electrical contractor in the above states. It is dangerous and if its not illegal it should be illegal to install one without an electrical license. All PV installs are done in the sun! When you are in the sun, you sweat! The last thing an inexperienced, non licensed person needs is to contact a 600V DC line or stick their sweaty hands in a combiner box! You think that suns hot? Let that DC grab you. It doesn't have a sinusoid. It grabs and does not let go. I feel like the fact it has its own chapter in the code book addresses that it is recognized by the NEC and should be installed by a qualified electrical contractor.
 
CA has a solar license. They can do what ever is needed, most of them also have a C-10 Electrical Contractors license in case they have to do a service change.
 
aelectricalman said:
I know with a 100% degree of certainty that it is required at the state level to have all Photovoltaic systems installed by a qualified licensed electrical contractor in the above states... .
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Which is why I said 'define electrician.' 'Electrical contractor' and 'electrician' are not entirely synonymous to me. It's one thing to say that an install has to be done by a licensed electrical (or solar) contractor, you'll get no argument from me there. It's another thing to say that the individual employees doing certain kinds of work for said contractor have to all be 'electricians', certified or otherwise. There is plenty of solar installation work (namely, all the racking and roofing and/or ground-mount earth and cement work) that requires no electrical skills. And it is also possible for a 'solar installer' to learn to deal safely with PV source circuits at the panel level without having the knowledge or skills to do any other kind of electrical work.
 
pdmtn asks a question that I have seem more than once. I think there is little argument that a qualified and licensed person be involved with most any electrical installation. The question I think he and other pose is at what point.
Does a person with electrical knowledge and certification need to be present when the racks are constructed ?, when the panels are set ? or is such a qualified person not necessary until actual wiring takes place.
That requirement varies from jurisdiction to jurisdiction...
For those involved in Solar installs.. at what point are licensed electrical personnel required to be on the job ???
 
augie47 said:
pdmtn asks a question that I have seem more than once. I think there is little argument that a qualified and licensed person be involved with most any electrical installation. The question I think he and other pose is at what point.
Does a person with electrical knowledge and certification need to be present when the racks are constructed ?, when the panels are set ? or is such a qualified person not necessary until actual wiring takes place.
That requirement varies from jurisdiction to jurisdiction...
For those involved in Solar installs.. at what point are licensed electrical personnel required to be on the job ???
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As I said, it depends.
 
aelectricalman said:
I know with a 100% degree of certainty that it is required at the state level to have all Photovoltaic systems installed by a qualified licensed electrical contractor in the above states. ...
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I have only worked on one system and it was of the type were the solar cells were on a flexible medium that had adhesive on the back. You clean the roof, remove the backer paper and stick it down like tape. Because of the roof manufacturer's warrantee the only one who could install this item was a roofer who has been certified to work with that manufacture?s rubber roof. It would be unlikely to find an electrician with such a certification. There were capped pigtails on each section so there was not a shock hazard unless you removed the cap.
 
pdmtn said:
In your areas at what point do the Electricians get involve in the installation of Solar Panel Systems ? Do you require the Electricians install the Panels,wiring, AC/DC, disconnects and all assocaited parts .... Art 690 (2008) is clear as mud
Thanks for your input.
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The entire installation is electricians work where I am and we have installed a few megawatts worth at this point.

But you can't look to the NEC for guidance here, you must go to your local rules.
 
My opinion...which mostly matches what I've seen in the field...

augie47 said:
Does a person with electrical knowledge and certification need to be present when the racks are constructed ?,
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No. And definitely not when the work is digging holes and pouring concrete. Electricians shouldn't even be allowed to do that stuff. :D

when the panels are set?
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On tilt-up racking, my answer is 'No', since the modules can be plugged in by someone else later.

On flush-to-the roof mounting, connecting modules usually has to be done at the same time as setting the panels, so see below, but my answer is still 'no'.

or is such a qualified person not necessary until actual wiring takes place?
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A qualified person is always necessary. ;) Whether any certifications required should be those of an 'electrician' is another question in my mind.

Wiring arguably falls into two parts; wiring on the array, and wiring between the array and the inverter(s), the tie in point, or other arrays. In my opinion, the qualifications necessary to do wiring on the array are not sufficient to call someone an 'electrician,' nor should someone be required to have all the skills and knowledge of an 'electrician' to do that work. OTOH, when the wiring leaves the array and enters a raceway, that is electricians' work.

In my opinion if a law requires a certified electrician to set panels and connect them only to each other or to micro-inverters, that law is unreasonable. I do not believe that in California the law requires that.
 
jaggedben said:
In my opinion if a law requires a certified electrician to set panels and connect them only to each other or to micro-inverters, that law is unreasonable. I do not believe that in California the law requires that.
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Luckily were am does require an electrician to do the work ......... as it should be. :cool:

Section 1A. No person, firm or corporation shall enter into, engage in, or work at the business or occupation of installing wires, conduits, apparatus, devices, fixtures, or other appliances for carrying or using electricity for light, heat, power, fire warning or security system purposes, unless such person, firm or corporation shall be licensed
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iwire said:
I agree 100%.
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So do I. Unfortunately (in my opinion) in most states this probably still means you have to be certified as an 'electrician', when possibly 90% of the work you are doing is not electrical work, and the 'electrical work' you are doing may consist merely of zip-tying panel leads and plugging in MC4s.

iwire said:
He is a solar installer and likely finds the licensing to be a pain.
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I suppose you're half right... It's nothing that is affecting me personally at the moment, nor am I worried about my path to certification. However, if a law like MA's were enforced in California it would pretty much shut down the solar industry and possibly eliminate my job.

The thing is, in my experience, right now 90% of solar installers lack the knowledge to do any other type of electrical work, and 90% of electricians lack the knowledge to install solar arrays.

Finally, an anecdote: I know of one commercial solar job in a large mid-western city that was initially contracted entirely with the electrical union. Most of the electricians had not done solar before and didn't know what it involved. After a few weeks of learning to do everything, the electricians decided that installing the racks was beneath them and was not 'electrical work'. So the carpenters union was brought in to install the racks. They did it faster and better, and everyone was happier.
 
The thing is, in my experience, right now 90% of solar installers lack the knowledge to do any other type of electrical work, and 90% of electricians lack the knowledge to install solar arrays.
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That is my opinion as well. So, I went to school for solar / wind installation. I was the only licensed electrician in the class.

The class was great. Thursday is the last day. Now I know how to completely design and install a PV system. Before I took the class, I hadn't a clue.

Now I am looking at my options. Should I look to a larger company for a specialized role, like QC and code compliance, or should I stake out on my own and start with small projects?

If I start out on my own, I will be going back to school for formal business training. I owned and operated small businesses in the past and I know I could benefit by going back to college.

If I hitch up with a larger company, I will lose my freedom (some of which is necessary for my health) and my identity.

But, at least I have more options now than I did 13 weeks ago.

I am really going to miss going to that class......:weeping:
 
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