A reasonable electrician

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knoppdude

Senior Member
Location
Sacramento,ca
Just looked at a job at a school where I was given the budget of how much the job was going to be, and then told that if materials were cheap enough, that I could install a "second" light. As I already donate some work to a local childrens theatre, and do this as they throw me some real work regularly. I am going to bid this job with a 10% profit, and they can take it or leave it. If they leave it, as they will, I will refer them to one of the bigger local "real electrical contractors", and they can start their price shopping from there. I wonder if they would do the same thing to a plumber if their piping had sprung a leak. I know everyone else has similar experience, but it is very much discouraging, and disgusting, when a customer tells you how much the job is worth. At least I don't care if the job gets done or not, makes it easier to walk away. Just had to vent.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Just looked at a job at a school where I was given the budget of how much the job was going to be, and then told that if materials were cheap enough, that I could install a "second" light. As I already donate some work to a local childrens theatre, and do this as they throw me some real work regularly. I am going to bid this job with a 10% profit, and they can take it or leave it. If they leave it, as they will, I will refer them to one of the bigger local "real electrical contractors", and they can start their price shopping from there. I wonder if they would do the same thing to a plumber if their piping had sprung a leak. I know everyone else has similar experience, but it is very much discouraging, and disgusting, when a customer tells you how much the job is worth. At least I don't care if the job gets done or not, makes it easier to walk away. Just had to vent.

I would give them the price that you would give anyone else to do the same work. If they don't like it they can shop around for a better price. Often times they are just trying to get all they can from you and will agree to your price anyway - especially if all of your competition is in same price range or higher.

Funny how if they are having budget problems that if their school board even thinks about cutting or freezing salaries they will get all upset about that.
 

satcom

Senior Member
I would give them the price that you would give anyone else to do the same work. If they don't like it they can shop around for a better price. Often times they are just trying to get all they can from you and will agree to your price anyway - especially if all of your competition is in same price range or higher.

Funny how if they are having budget problems that if their school board even thinks about cutting or freezing salaries they will get all upset about that.

They need the money to pay a the school purchasing agent a $120k salary plus benefits costs. The schools can figure how to milk the public.
 

jmellc

Senior Member
Location
Durham, NC
Occupation
Facility Maintenance Tech. Licensed Electrician
I get some version of this all the time. Nearly every customer out there is a master at talking down the price or squeezing out extra work along the way.

Give the price you will do it for and let them take or leave it. Fine to give a price break if you want to do that, but stick to what YOU decide. You are the one putting out $ to do the job and wearing out your knees, back, etc.

If they push too hard, offer further price breaks if someone there will be your volunteer helper.
 

knoppdude

Senior Member
Location
Sacramento,ca
I already have an accurate estimate that exceeds his previous estimate, just on labor, so I am going to tell him the other price was a good one. I understand being budget conscious, and have seen the sad look on peoples faces when they hear the cost of a job, these I can deal with. It is those who have set the bid for you that piss me off, and this is one of those instances. Like I said before, I already have a non-profit that I help when I can, but this is my choice to help them out, not them telling me what I have to work for. Ok, I am done venting, and thanks for the responses.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
I already have an accurate estimate that exceeds his previous estimate, just on labor, so I am going to tell him the other price was a good one. I understand being budget conscious, and have seen the sad look on peoples faces when they hear the cost of a job, these I can deal with. It is those who have set the bid for you that piss me off, and this is one of those instances. Like I said before, I already have a non-profit that I help when I can, but this is my choice to help them out, not them telling me what I have to work for. Ok, I am done venting, and thanks for the responses.

If it is a public school don't feel sorry for them in any way. They are not exactly the same thing as other non profit organizations. They will waste taxpayer money in any way they see fit. That said I do understand some decisions are not easy to make.
 

sameguy

Senior Member
Location
New York
Occupation
Master Elec./JW retired
Really when he gets hurt on your job!
"The job is only worth $xxxx due to thats all I would like to pay."
 

renosteinke

Senior Member
Location
NE Arkansas
It's far too easy to offer advice, without having the track record to support your opinions.

Still, there's a limit. You still have to pay your bills in order to survive, so the question becomes whether one customer should subsidize another.

Perhaps the best approach is to give a 'book' price on the first job or two; the customers' complications and payment history will then give you the information you need to adjust your future prices accordingly.
 

__dan

Banned
One thing you may try, the board of ed probably has rules, if it's over a set dollar amount it has to go out for bid. Under that amount, say $600 to $700, they may be able to write the expense as small incidental ongoing repairs and just hand out the work with no bid.

Your contact person, you may offer to work T&M and split the invoice into two or three pieces to stay under the mandatory bid process rules. It can be time consuming and a hassle also for the school to shop around and run a bid process, documentation, for small jobs.

You can offer to save them (and yourself) time and money to just come there and get the work done instead of going there just to give the answer they require given, regardless of right or wrong. It can be a test of if they want to be friends or adversaries.

It was ~ 1995 and we changed the boilers at the local HS. I had done a lot of them, we were longtime low bidders, very competitive. Long story short, we had to win the bid twice over a 1.5 year period. The second time with our design correcting just huge, joke huge, design mistakes. The second bid was $100,000. less than the first one, included right sized boilers, a third boiler for a dedicated DHW system with multiple tank in a tank heat exchangers, and a $9000. Heat Timer electronic reset boiler control.

Time came to do the job and I knew the guys would not be able to see what they were doing (quality of work issue). I took down a few incandescent fixtures and put up three 8 ft HO flourescents. I wrote the change and planned to just give the lights away if they refused the charge. Dummy me, thought I could make it up in the future. The permanent building committee refused the $600. invoice and ordered me to take the lights out. I took them out after completion, put the old lights back up, and it became hard to see your shoes with the lights on again.

I did not care too much about getting screwed on the invoice but was incensed they would refuse my generosity. They were interfering with the quality of my work.

Probably ten years later I was down there voting and brought in a digital camera to take some job photos. The maintenance super remembered me well. They had put an addition on the building which I would have bid if I was not too busy. I saw they had added a third boiler for the guesstimated load, they were again clueless, saw it was not piped correctly with primary and secondary pumped loops. It was piped straight parallel so the idle boilers would have full hot water flow and full heat loss up the chimney.

Took a picture of my work then turned to snap a picture of the $9000 Heat Timers running the fully modulating fire burners. My jaw just snapped shut. There was a perfect impression on the wall where the boxes had been, clean rectangles on the dirty wall. They had taken the burner controls out when they installed the BAS. They did not know I could have made good money installing those boxes in another school, not to mention that the BAS was probably a lot worse at the specific task of fully modulating burner fire control with hot water reset. Fuel savings from the Heat Timers could be over $25,000 annually.

They probably never saw anyone move so fast from the boiler room, through the voting booth, and out the door. Probably the last time I voted in that town or drove down Main Street.
 
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gadfly56

Senior Member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Professional Engineer, Fire & Life Safety
One thing you may try, the board of ed probably has rules, if it's over a set dollar amount it has to go out for bid. Under that amount, say $600 to $700, they may be able to write the expense as small incidental ongoing repairs and just hand out the work with no bid.

Your contact person, you may offer to work T&M and split the invoice into two or three pieces to stay under the mandatory bid process rules. It can be time consuming and a hassle also for the school to shop around and run a bid process, documentation, for small jobs....

Depending on your jurisdiction, proceed here with EXTREME caution. New Jersey, as many states do, has a prevailing wage law. Unless a municipality is writing the check direct, any repair or installation work over $2,000 is at prevailing wage rates. In NJ right now for electricians, about $82.41/hr for a foreman and $73.60/hr for journeymen. And yes, if you are a one-man band you still have to pay yourself the prevailing rate. And provide certified payrolls to that effect.

The next kicker is that the trick of breaking up a job into parts is strictly verboten. If the idea is to upgrade the lighting in the classroom, the Wage and Labor folks aren't going to let you charge "a" for the demo, "b" for the new wire, "c" for the switches and "d", "e", and "f" for the fixtures all as separate jobs. The intent is to upgrade the lighting for the classroom. One job, one price. You might get away with bidding each classroom separately, especially if no service work was required and it was done over several years or several vacation periods.
 

__dan

Banned
Depending on your jurisdiction, proceed here with EXTREME caution.

Yes, you are right, Board of Ed money. They will drive around in an Escalade on payments with no air in the tires and bring it into the dealer because the cab makes a clanging sound when they start it up. However, any money leaving the system that does not go in their pocket is a LEAK. Anything over 25 USD and they will start crying robbery.

Prevailing wage here used to start at 50K for existing and 200K for new but those are old numbers. I have no idea where the limits are now.

One thing to add. Many of the State bid processes will include a range about the budget number where if the bids come in the range they're considered good numbers and can be awarded. The number I've heard is +- 10%. I have won jobs that way, just adding 10% to the budget number and walking away.
 

jmellc

Senior Member
Location
Durham, NC
Occupation
Facility Maintenance Tech. Licensed Electrician
many times that I've tried that trick I wished I hadn't, helper with no experience can sometimes make the job take longer than if I had worked alone.

Yes, true. I would only suggest that in a situation where no one would likely take me up on it. I've had help forced on me that was no help at all.
 

220/221

Senior Member
Location
AZ
is very much discouraging, and disgusting, when a customer tells you how much the job is worth. .


I think the opposite. I like knowing upfront what I am up against.

Generally, you will know right away if you should proceed with an estimate or not wate any time on it.

We work with a couple of national accounts and sometimes the prices they give us are really quite good.
 

Electron_Sam78

Senior Member
Location
Palm Bay, FL
I had a potential customer call me in a t 6pm one night to wire in a brand new electric furnace because their gas one went out I guess and they needed heat that night because it was supposed to freeze. Something about not wanting pipes in basement to freeze. He tried to tell me what he was going to pay me and even left for the bank to get the amount he stated. While he was gone I left. Hope he kept his pipes warmed that night. :lol:
 
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