Need help on electrical fire related questions

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Mike Lang

Mike Lang

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New Jersey
I took permits out on a residential renovation. The job has been framed and the plumber is currently working on the job. Last friday a delivery truck hit the service drop with the box of his truck and started a fire. One of the hot legs got sliced open by the truck and got welded to the bare neutral. The transformer did not blow and sent 120 volts with a ton of amperage across the neutral bar and out through all of the neutrals and grounds. The bare water pipe bond lit up the insulation and the ceiling joists across most of the house and then down into the basement. Pretty much everything it was in contact with. Most of the visible damage is in a straight line following the water pipe bond. Although the existing part of the house is still sheet rocked and I can't say what condition these wires are in.
Now here's my problem, I'm not comfortable fixing the visible stuff and just praying that the hidden wires are all OK. I'm getting the feeling that the insurance adjuster is not OK with me re-wiring the entire house. How would you guys deal with this?
I don't want to get a phone call a year from now that the house went up in flames at 3am with a family in it. I want to re-wire the entire house because I can't say that the other wires are all in perfect condition since I can't see them.
 
Were the grounds and neutrals connected to anything? In other words if this was all new and still in the rough stage or just before the finish then the neutrals and grounds would not have carried any current. If they were tied to something then its another story. The only reason the bond melted was because it carries the all the current to ground. Had it not been connected no return path would have existed (assuming nothing else was providing the return path) I assume the job was just wired since you talk of plumbers and drywall.

Opps I just read it again and saw existing...... If those wires had a return path then they could have carried some current but not likely enough to damage them because their return path would have to be through a device /appliance and then through a breaker.
 
mikeames said:
If those wires had a return path then they could have carried some current but not likely enough to damage them because their return path would have to be through a device /appliance and then through a breaker.
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I actually haven't done any work in the house yet. The new section is only roughed out with plumbing. The existing section had everything connected so yes the voltage had a return path although most of the appliances have been removed. So really there were only receptacles, switches / dimmers, and the furnace, oh and the tankless water heater hopefully that's not shot, that would be expensive replacement.

As far as the existing non visable wiring you would just megger it and if it checks out ok move on? Also i just spoke to the electrical inspector a little while ago and he wants a new service before he'll issue a new cutting card
 
Turns out the inspector won't give me a letter to give to the insurance company requiring a new service before sending a cutting card. So I'm on my own on this one. It seems that no one wants to speak up or provide me with any written documentation. I get the feeling they don't want any liability, although they want me to carry it all.
I do have one more question for you guys. If I megger the existing wires... fix all that are damaged and leave the rest what if there is another fire in the future? Am I liable since I repaired the work? Will this house forever be my problem since it was my company that did the repair work? I'm sure if there were any problems regardless of how many years later they would come after me with any lawsuits.
 
It was an existing house - sure they can come after you, the pizza guy, whomever they wish, it's America. Megger the circuits, recommend repairs where warranted, and document every step of the way. If they refuse a service and you make a point to have them sign a work order declining the recommended work, then they'll be far less likely to sue you after they die in the fire a year from now.

Deep breaths. :)
 
George Stolz said:
It was an existing house - sure they can come after you, the pizza guy, whomever they wish, it's America. Megger the circuits, recommend repairs where warranted, and document every step of the way. If they refuse a service and you make a point to have them sign a work order declining the recommended work, then they'll be far less likely to sue you after they die in the fire a year from now.

Deep breaths. :)
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Thanks for the advice... I'm going crazy. I just signed on for the renovation and now this. I really need this like a pet python that sleeps in my bed. I'll document everything and hope everything goes well.

Thanks
 
Mike Lang said:
I took permits out on a residential renovation. The job has been framed and the plumber is currently working on the job. Last friday a delivery truck hit the service drop with the box of his truck and started a fire. One of the hot legs got sliced open by the truck and got welded to the bare neutral. The transformer did not blow and sent 120 volts with a ton of amperage across the neutral bar and out through all of the neutrals and grounds. The bare water pipe bond lit up the insulation and the ceiling joists across most of the house and then down into the basement. Pretty much everything it was in contact with. Most of the visible damage is in a straight line following the water pipe bond. Although the existing part of the house is still sheet rocked and I can't say what condition these wires are in.
Now here's my problem, I'm not comfortable fixing the visible stuff and just praying that the hidden wires are all OK. I'm getting the feeling that the insurance adjuster is not OK with me re-wiring the entire house. How would you guys deal with this?
I don't want to get a phone call a year from now that the house went up in flames at 3am with a family in it. I want to re-wire the entire house because I can't say that the other wires are all in perfect condition since I can't see them.
Click to expand...

Water pipe makes sense to carry a lot of current if it is metal piping and is also connected to another service such as at the neighbors house. Cable TV or telephone cable shields could also carry some of this current if they are bonded to the grounding system like they are supposed to be. Outside of those items everything else was not carrying any current or at least very little. The current was seeking a path back to the source - the POCO transformer. Anything that does not have a path leaving the house was not carrying any of the fault current. Anything that did have a path leaving the house had to have a low resistance path back to the POCO transformer otherwise it did not carry any fault current either.
 
Electrical fires happen now and then. It is very hard to pin the blame on anyone in most cases. Liability for anything is hard to pin down. That is why you have insurance. Even if you are found not to be liable, the legal fees are a big problem. The insurance company takes care of that as part of the deal when you buy liability insurance.

Do what you think is safe and let whatever risk there is be taken by the people you pay to taken on those risks - your insurance company.
 
Mike Lang said:
Last friday a delivery truck hit the service drop with the box of his truck and started a fire. One of the hot legs got sliced open by the truck and got welded to the bare neutral. The transformer did not blow and sent 120 volts with a ton of amperage across the neutral bar and out through all of the neutrals and grounds. The bare water pipe bond lit up the insulation and the ceiling joists across most of the house and then down into the basement. Pretty much everything it was in contact with. Most of the visible damage is in a straight line following the water pipe bond. Although the existing part of the house is still sheet rocked and I can't say what condition these wires are in.
Now here's my problem, I'm not comfortable fixing the visible stuff and just praying that the hidden wires are all OK. I'm getting the feeling that the insurance adjuster is not OK with me re-wiring the entire house. How would you guys deal with this?
Click to expand...

You are not required to fix anything on this house. Let the insurance company find their own electrical contractor to do repairs to the main part of the house unless they wish to do it your way.

You are the the electrical contractor and you shouldn't do anything that you are not comfortable with.

If it was me I would quote a price to do it my way and if they don't like it they can get someone else. I had a job similar to this at a small school where a truck knocked down the service and they wanted it repaired and I wanted it replaced. They couldn't find anyone willing to do what they wanted.
 
I would do as was suggested by Georgestoltz and megger everything and document results. By the way, it would be a good idea to have a national standard or something back up your opinion of what is considered at good wire, or bad and should be replaced. As long as you have documentation and sound principles backing you, you should be ok. And like was already said, this is what insurance is for.
 
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