JWCELECTRIC
Senior Member
- Location
- Massachusetts
I thought this was the Electrical Contrator know-it-alls, not the Engineering know-it-alls, Opps wrong thread!
Engineering know-it-alls
- Thread starter rich9112
- Start date
- Status
SAC
Senior Member
- Location
- Massachusetts
When you get hired (and paid) by a client, do you tell them that the electrical work you perform will be 100% complete and accurate? I would hope so. After all, isn't that want you are being hired and paid for?
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
- Occupation
- EC
If both the plans and installation are same then everyone has done well.
If the plans and installation are different someone was wrong.
Maybe designers and installers need to learn to work together when there is a problem instead of each coming into the situation with an opinioin of how much more they know vs the other person. People do make mistakes. When they consistently make same mistakes that is when they possibly have some kind of problem.
Sierrasparky
Senior Member
- Location
- USA
- Occupation
- Electrician ,contractor
You are forgetting the situation of value engineering where the EE is trying to save money for the owner usually at the EC's expense. The EE then hides behind such things as " plans state EC must comply with all codes and specs"
Look at the post where the project was drawn for over head service from the wrong POCO. It was the EE's job to spec properly. To expect 15 bidding EC to contact the POCO individually to spec the job is perposterous. The POCO does not want to be flooded with such calls. On call from the EE is all.!!!!!
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jmellc
Senior Member
- Location
- Durham, NC
- Occupation
- Facility Maintenance Tech. Licensed Electrician
I think you're justified to install what you know is needed & charge accordingly. It will be a fight, but if you don't add these items, you will flunk inspection. Even if you pass inspection, if someone is hurt down the road for not having a disconnect nearby, it could fall back on you. As you said, prints specify that EC is responsible for wiring to national, state & local codes or NEC standards, however they term it. That leaves you stuck with all liabilities. You said your local inspectors are not up to speed. Can you consult with your state level AHJ? some proper authority should gladly back you up on this issue.
jmellc
Senior Member
- Location
- Durham, NC
- Occupation
- Facility Maintenance Tech. Licensed Electrician
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
- Occupation
- EC
I think the last sentence of my last post kind of covers what you said.
"When they consistently make same mistakes that is when they possibly have some kind of problem."
People in just about any profession have these kinds of problems in one way or another, part of being a professional is learning how to deal with the problems, we also have to deal with owners wanting things that are not code compliant, some inspectors that don't know what they are doing, labor laws, permit or license issues, insurance, taxes, the list goes on and on.
Being in business is not an easy job no matter what your profession is, competition either makes you better or makes you fold.
Sierrasparky
Senior Member
- Location
- USA
- Occupation
- Electrician ,contractor
Kwired,
You are giving those professionals way too much credit. Wait till you get burned you will be singing a different tune.
The issue by the op is not so much that he is liable it's that the EE refuses to correct the issue. That is a huge issue. If the EC deviates from the plan without consent of the EE there can be an issue just in that. The EC then needs to prove that his deviation was prudent and Necessary. If this is a serious issue and there becomes some fingerpointing the EC will be liable. It's the arrogance and the willfulness we speak of not the legitimate mistake.
You are giving those professionals way too much credit. Wait till you get burned you will be singing a different tune.
The issue by the op is not so much that he is liable it's that the EE refuses to correct the issue. That is a huge issue. If the EC deviates from the plan without consent of the EE there can be an issue just in that. The EC then needs to prove that his deviation was prudent and Necessary. If this is a serious issue and there becomes some fingerpointing the EC will be liable. It's the arrogance and the willfulness we speak of not the legitimate mistake.
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
- Occupation
- EC
I understand the problem, I also have problems with other professionals in other areas. If you want to bid these jobs it is part of the game. I have had more problems with POCO engineers and ridiculous specifications from them than with a set of prints for a building.
I don't recall ever winning a bid from engineered plans unless I knew I was likely to get the job before even submitting a bid. If you don't already have some kind of relationship with owner or general contractor or whoever you are sending bid to you usually don't get it unless you are really low, then you have to wonder what you might have missed on the bid.
I still send bids for jobs but I in no way try to keep them low just to win a job. If I am to win the job I want it to be worth doing otherwise I want no part of it. I have enough regular customers that always call me back for new work that it is more important to me to keep them happy then to become a slave to a little or no profit contract.
Sierrasparky
Senior Member
- Location
- USA
- Occupation
- Electrician ,contractor
Dishonesty and fraud have no place here. There are laws against the EC there should be similar consequences for the EE.
[/QUOTE]I don't recall ever winning a bid from engineered plans unless I knew I was likely to get the job before even submitting a bid. If you don't already have some kind of relationship with owner or general contractor or whoever you are sending bid to you usually don't get it unless you are really low, then you have to wonder what you might have missed on the bid..[/QUOTE]
Well I have won bids from contractors whom I did not know that had great plans. I have seen plenty of plans that are outright frauds.
I still send bids for jobs but I in no way try to keep them low just to win a job. If I am to win the job I want it to be worth doing otherwise I want no part of it. I have enough regular customers that always call me back for new work that it is more important to me to keep them happy then to become a slave to a little or no profit contract.[/QUOTE]
Why do you still send in bids on such a project. No amount of money will save you from litigation! .[/QUOTE]
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
- Occupation
- EC
I don't recall ever winning a bid from engineered plans unless I knew I was likely to get the job before even submitting a bid. If you don't already have some kind of relationship with owner or general contractor or whoever you are sending bid to you usually don't get it unless you are really low, then you have to wonder what you might have missed on the bid..[/QUOTE]
Well I have won bids from contractors whom I did not know that had great plans. I have seen plenty of plans that are outright frauds.
I still send bids for jobs but I in no way try to keep them low just to win a job. If I am to win the job I want it to be worth doing otherwise I want no part of it. I have enough regular customers that always call me back for new work that it is more important to me to keep them happy then to become a slave to a little or no profit contract.[/QUOTE]
Why do you still send in bids on such a project. No amount of money will save you from litigation! .[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]
This day in age, just waking up in the morning subjects you to litigation.
Ragin Cajun
Senior Member
- Location
- Upstate S.C.
That's why when I issue drawings for code review I have on every sheet "Issued for code review only". I am protected and the EC is informed.
Many times, because of schedules, the code review set is at the 90% or so stage. Good enough for code review, but not for construction!
Very few code reviews catch much, mostly have something that the reviewer "wants". Too often code reviews have their "boiler plate" comments that are already covered in my plans/specs and I have to waste time answering them.
I actually appreciate a good plan review.
RC
- Status