Show Window Receptacle, the MADNESS !

[georgeswe]

I have been wanting to post something on this for a while because it seams absurd to have to install show window receptacles in a 20-25 ft ceiling in a car dealership. I belive that the intention of this code is pure because we have all seen the picture below,

However I primarily work in high end auto dealerships and they have showrooms and the windows qualify as "Show Windows". In the past I have had to add a panel specifically for these receptacles due to the massive load required. Now, with the advent of LED signage I think this code needs to be looked and if not amended. I have been installing show window receptacles in car dealerships for years and I think someone needs to ask WHY? Receptacles 23 ft. in the air that will NEVER be used. I'm curious what you guys think, maybe I'm way of base. I have looked thoroughly at the code and could not find any exception that deals with this. I looked at 210.62 in the 2005 and 2008 book and the major change is that they elaborated on the "directly above" to "18" Above" show window. It is not uncommon for a Auto dealership to have 200 ft plus of "show window", that's a tremendous load, and at 23' AFF will never be used for the intention of this code. Let me know what you guys think.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I think it is impossible to deal with all the possibilities so it is easier just to make a blanket statement to cover all scenarios. If it is there it is not an issue-- done. Can you imagine trying to write all the exceptions.

Same for outlets in a residence. I bet most never get used.

 

[jumper]

I must be missing something.

210.14(G) Show Windows. Show windows shall be calculated in
accordance with either of the following:
(1) The unit load per outlet as required in other provisions
of this section
(2) At 200 volt-amperes per 300 mm (1 ft) of show window

If I use (1), 200/12=17 receptacles

17 x 180VA= 3060VA

3060VAVA/120V= 26A

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I don't get the tremendous load but I do understand the 17 receptacles that are required in a 200' space being excessive.

 

[georgeswe]

I see what you did there, but look at 220.43 (A) this would mean 200' x 200VA = 40000 VA This code section does have a note that directs you back to 220.14 (G). I have always seen it engineered with the 200VA per linear foot calc. This is very interesting, I will have to look into this. The current job we are doing has 142' of show window and the engineer has (8) recepts on (8) circuits.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I see what you did there, but look at 220.43 (A) this would mean 200' x 200VA = 40000 VA This code section does have a note that directs you back to 220.14 (G). I have always seen it engineered with the 200VA per linear foot calc. This is very interesting, I will have to look into this.

210.62 is where he got the 12'

 

[iwire]

I get paid to do electrical work, assuming these 17 outlets were not missed in the bidding installing them is a money maker.

 

[jumper]

220.43(A) is a lighting load. Are we talking about it or receptacles? :?

 

[jumper]

I see what you did there, but look at 220.43 (A) this would mean 200' x 200VA = 40000 VA This code section does have a note that directs you back to 220.14 (G). I have always seen it engineered with the 200VA per linear foot calc. This is very interesting, I will have to look into this. The current job we are doing has 142' of show window and the engineer has (8) recepts on (8) circuits.

So, put 8 receptacles on 8 circuits and get paid. I still do not understand what the real question is.

 

[hmspe]

I recommend asking the Building Official for special permission to eliminate the show window receptacles under 90.4.

220.43(A) is feeder load. 220.12(G) is branch circuit load. Two different calculations.

This makes as much sense as the NEC requiring 3.5VA/s.f. for office lighting when the IECC allows 1VA/s.f. max, but it is what it is.

 

[Chamuit]

I get paid to do electrical work, assuming these 17 outlets were not missed in the bidding installing them is a money maker.

You're just too easy to get along with!!

 

[jumper]

You're just too easy to get along with!!

Bob!!!

 

[Sierrasparky]

Why not claim special circumstances, EE do in other areas!

 

[jwelectric]

It is a car dealership today but what will be there tomorrow?

 

[iwire]

It is a car dealership today but what will be there tomorrow?

Oh no, he just played the 'What if card', nothing can defeat the what if scenario.

 

[jumper]

Oh no, he just played the 'What if card', nothing can defeat the what if scenario.

 

[growler]

It is a car dealership today but what will be there tomorrow?

In the areas where I work there is a "change of use" permit that would be reqired if this structure is used for something other that a dealership.

I can see nothing wrong with the engineer asking for "special permission" not to have the show window receptacles.

As an EC I don't think it would be in my best interest to talk myself out of work but I can see where the engineers may want to look closely at it. Sounds like a waste of money for the owners.

 

[jwelectric]

Oh no, he just played the 'What if card', nothing can defeat the what if scenario.

In the areas where I work there is a "change of use" permit that would be reqired if this structure is used for something other that a dealership.

Didn?t mean to start a fight or anything just thinking out loud (just thinking while my fingers was ever so gently stroking this key pad) and a car dealership was far from my mind.

I refuse to say just what I was thinking
:ashamed: