I gave a customer a price to hook up her generator and transfer switch. She wants to go with my price, but asked me if I could supply her with the material list. I told her that my estimate was free and that if she found a better price then she should go with that. I also told her that I didn't fell comfortable giving her the list because of the possibility of someone else getting the work. She assured me that wouldn't happen. I gave her a deal, and I know that she wants me to do the work because of that (2 previous quotes). Should I stick with my guns and not furnish a material list? Actually, I quoted her from a similar job, and I don't really feel like calling around etc to furnish her with a list.
The customer wants a material list.
- Thread starter Benton
- Start date
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Cow
Senior Member
- Location
- Eastern Oregon
- Occupation
- Electrician
This is a bid, not time and material!
Why in the world would you give her a material list? Or even think twice about it?
You're in this to make money, not to play games with cheap customers who want to buy their own material. If she pushed the issue, I'd tell her to take a hike.
Why in the world would you give her a material list? Or even think twice about it?
You're in this to make money, not to play games with cheap customers who want to buy their own material. If she pushed the issue, I'd tell her to take a hike.
renosteinke
Senior Member
- Location
- NE Arkansas
"Hook up her generator and transfer switch."
I take that to mean that the genny and switch are already present. If that's the case, your 'materials' are nothing but ordinary wire and fittings.
I can see merit is your specifying the wiring method (EMT, etc.), but no merit in your calling out how many sticks of pipe, etc., you plan to use. I see three reasons why you might be asked for more details.
The first is, as you fear, an attempt to nickel and dime the job. Probably more trouble than its' worth.
Another reason can become a sales opportunity for you: a chance to emphasize the virtues of your chosen method over a cheaper alternative someone else might offer. It's your chance to explain why your BMW is a better choice than the other guys' Yugo.
Finally, there might be another party in the background, stirring the pot. This 'somebody' could be anyone from Hilbilly Hank (who knows how to 'run wahr') to the genny salesman, trying to steer business to his pet EC. If that's the case, you need to do some major hand-holding, express your willingness to chat with this other party, and stand firm. "My quote is for the complete job, performance guaranteed, and I won't dissect it for you." The challenge is to let them say 'no' in a way that leaves the door open to them to change their minds in a week, without hurting their pride.
I take that to mean that the genny and switch are already present. If that's the case, your 'materials' are nothing but ordinary wire and fittings.
I can see merit is your specifying the wiring method (EMT, etc.), but no merit in your calling out how many sticks of pipe, etc., you plan to use. I see three reasons why you might be asked for more details.
The first is, as you fear, an attempt to nickel and dime the job. Probably more trouble than its' worth.
Another reason can become a sales opportunity for you: a chance to emphasize the virtues of your chosen method over a cheaper alternative someone else might offer. It's your chance to explain why your BMW is a better choice than the other guys' Yugo.
Finally, there might be another party in the background, stirring the pot. This 'somebody' could be anyone from Hilbilly Hank (who knows how to 'run wahr') to the genny salesman, trying to steer business to his pet EC. If that's the case, you need to do some major hand-holding, express your willingness to chat with this other party, and stand firm. "My quote is for the complete job, performance guaranteed, and I won't dissect it for you." The challenge is to let them say 'no' in a way that leaves the door open to them to change their minds in a week, without hurting their pride.
Another guess, if she really wants you to do the job, is that she may want to go buy the parts herself to save on the material mark up.
petersonra
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern illinois
- Occupation
- engineer
I would tell her the truth. There is no material list because it is all stuff you will pull out of your working stock or pick up as needed, and the actual PN and manufacturer will vary depending on what is available or where you get it. I do not understand why people make a BOM such a big deal anyway for common crap like this. It is just wire and pipe.
- Location
- Chapel Hill, NC
- Occupation
- Retired Electrical Contractor
Give her the list of materials when you are done with no prices. If she wants the list now then I suspect she is checking other prices.
bradleyelectric
Senior Member
- Location
- forest hill, md
she has assured you you will be getting the work. Pick up your deposit check and give her a summarized material list.
CopperTone
Senior Member
- Location
- MetroWest, MA
here is her material list
1. wire
2. conduit
3. conduit fitttings
4. breaker
sounds like you are installing a customer provided disco and genny so you can leave that out.
specify - installed according to the NEC or state code as well.
That's Funny:lol: thanks guys
mtfallsmikey
Senior Member
When I was approached to give a breakdown like that, my response was: "Does the grocery store give you a breakdown of costs for a head of lettuce? Seed, fertilizer, labor to pick, shipping, markup by the farmer/distributor/retailer, electric costs for refrigeration?"
I guess they don't understand how it works, every business marks up material and labor, from your local market to every day to day service you use, and I can't think of one that breaks down their cost, when someone tries to play games, when bill time comes, walk away, and turn it over to collection, you don't want a customer that has no respect for you, or your skills, just make sure you always have signed contract, with terms and conditions, then as soon as the games start, fax that money due to collection.
I would really like to know what that burger costs, and then I could stand at the drive up and ask for a breakdown of costs before I pay, but for some reason they want my money before I get my burger.
no customer supplied materials
no customer supplied materials
will your customer expect you to replace for free a faulty part they purchased?I would guess they will if they are nickle and diming you before you get started.if you took your bacon and eggs into the diner and told them to charge you 5 minutes labor to cook them , how would that work out.i hate chislers.
no customer supplied materials
will your customer expect you to replace for free a faulty part they purchased?I would guess they will if they are nickle and diming you before you get started.if you took your bacon and eggs into the diner and told them to charge you 5 minutes labor to cook them , how would that work out.i hate chislers.
Providing this "materials list" can be a slippery slope - and I'm writing from a customer's perspective not a contractor. We used a small contractor whom we loved because they had two masters with great experience in critical backup systems (we are in Data Centers). An over-involved exec pleasantly requested an itemized materials list on one job under the guise that this would help him justify the cost estimates to other execs. Of course, that was not his intent. Sure enough, the owner of the contracting company supplied the list and our exec basically forced them to just bid for labor once he realized he could cut the 20% markup on materials. Being a small contractor, the owner was stuck in a tough situation from then on out. Being that our company provided a steady stream of work, he just had to eat the fact that he would never receive a materials markup.
I felt for the guy - but I think he just had to take what he could get at the time (08 - 09). I personally feel it's kind of disrespectful and cheap to force vendors to discect their bids, but I see it happening - and vendors cooperating - more and more nowadays.
ShmoJoe
I felt for the guy - but I think he just had to take what he could get at the time (08 - 09). I personally feel it's kind of disrespectful and cheap to force vendors to discect their bids, but I see it happening - and vendors cooperating - more and more nowadays.
ShmoJoe
Letting the owner furnish the materials is fine with me. My markup structure is based on margin dollars per man/hr. (I have explained this a couple of times on this board, I think people just glaze over. So be it).
I still markup the job so I make the same margin as-if I am supplying the materials. Period!
Fulthrotl
~Autocorrect is My Worst Enema.~
- Occupation
- E
i don't do time and material any more. i read here, i learned, it's a lot simpler now.
i have a simple question i ask myself... how much do i want in my pocket when i'm
done with this, walking away?
then i do a rough take off for materials, and add a percentage varying from 25% to
100%, depending on the level of unknowns, so i'm not working for free.
then i add them together. that's the price. works for me.
renosteinke
Senior Member
- Location
- NE Arkansas
Fullthrottle has, again, cut to the heart of the matter.
Forget percentages, hourly rates, etc - and keep clear what you want 'left over' for you at the end of the job.
Customer wants to supply stuff? Fine .... as long as your end is covered. Customer wants your final price to reflect your cheap labor and the other guys' cheap materials? Well, let the customer make the arrangements; let the customer get the cheap stuff delivered on-site, on-time.
Subject to your acceptance, of course. I had a guy once supply 'EMT' that turned out to be fence rail (dimensions were slightly different).
Let's imagine a job where you quote against two other guys. Mr. Smith has the cheapest labor and Mr. Jones has the cheapest materials. The customer wants you to do it using their prices. Your response is that you want their prices PLUS your share. Or, slightly modified, he wants to supply both the parts and the labor. You're not interested unless you clear $X on the job. That money is for your participation - planning, supervising, inspecting, etc. Don't be afraid to tell the customer that you're not interested in getting out of bed for less than (say) $1000/day- minimum!
Forget percentages, hourly rates, etc - and keep clear what you want 'left over' for you at the end of the job.
Customer wants to supply stuff? Fine .... as long as your end is covered. Customer wants your final price to reflect your cheap labor and the other guys' cheap materials? Well, let the customer make the arrangements; let the customer get the cheap stuff delivered on-site, on-time.
Subject to your acceptance, of course. I had a guy once supply 'EMT' that turned out to be fence rail (dimensions were slightly different).
Let's imagine a job where you quote against two other guys. Mr. Smith has the cheapest labor and Mr. Jones has the cheapest materials. The customer wants you to do it using their prices. Your response is that you want their prices PLUS your share. Or, slightly modified, he wants to supply both the parts and the labor. You're not interested unless you clear $X on the job. That money is for your participation - planning, supervising, inspecting, etc. Don't be afraid to tell the customer that you're not interested in getting out of bed for less than (say) $1000/day- minimum!
jaylectricity
Senior Member
- Location
- Massachusetts
- Occupation
- licensed journeyman electrician
I do time and material all the time. I don't call it that, though. I call it labor and expenses. Labor is the direct number of hours on the job, including phone calls, time at the supply house, time researching the issue online, etc. Expenses include the materials, sometimes a tool I needed for the job, maybe the gas required to the job (especially when I am forced to drive there on separate occasions rather than being able to schedule the day and be done with it), etc.
Plus I will use somebody's "cheap" materials because chances are it will take me longer to install it. Metal romex connectors with flat-head screws, boxes with devices still installed in them and the wire cut just outside the connector that also needs to be removed and will need a blank KO seal, light fixtures missing hardware (that I can supply that I probably saved from some other job).
It's really on how you work it out.
Yes, occasionally I give somebody a price, but I'm an electrician not an estimator. I'm good at giving people what they want, I'm not so good at guessing how much it will cost them.
Plus I will use somebody's "cheap" materials because chances are it will take me longer to install it. Metal romex connectors with flat-head screws, boxes with devices still installed in them and the wire cut just outside the connector that also needs to be removed and will need a blank KO seal, light fixtures missing hardware (that I can supply that I probably saved from some other job).
It's really on how you work it out.
Yes, occasionally I give somebody a price, but I'm an electrician not an estimator. I'm good at giving people what they want, I'm not so good at guessing how much it will cost them.
readydave8
re member
- Location
- Clarkesville, Georgia
- Occupation
- electrician
Not only flat head screws and used boxes, they often have surplus 10/2 uf that they want me to run to receptacles.
weressl
Esteemed Member
I routinely supply material takeoff with my bid inquiry and also specify the material to be used. This for small <$100K industrial jobs and of course for larger jobs as well. The Contractor is requested to identify if:
- His takeoff from the documentation results in significant difference from the above,
- If he intends to offer different materials and finally,
- He is responsible for make-up quantities if the actual quantity of materials used differs.
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When your dealing with homeowners, all sorts of demands may be made, it is up to you to help the customer understand the scope of work, and material choices, but when it comes to pricing, there is usually only one option, a price that covers your costs and your desired profit, what you paid for, or marked up material, should not be an issue.
This women is lucky, she was not a storm victim, and needed some emergency work done, in my area the higher priced flat rate, big ad space guys got most of the work, and at two to three times the price the small EC's were asking, they don't have to play with customer games in normal times, so when disaster hits, they just operate in their normal high price, move on to the next customer mode, and take their money to the bank, if you want to work with people looking for deals you will always have problems.
This women is lucky, she was not a storm victim, and needed some emergency work done, in my area the higher priced flat rate, big ad space guys got most of the work, and at two to three times the price the small EC's were asking, they don't have to play with customer games in normal times, so when disaster hits, they just operate in their normal high price, move on to the next customer mode, and take their money to the bank, if you want to work with people looking for deals you will always have problems.
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