Missing panel cover

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Kdog76

Senior Member
A Resi customer of mine is missing a Cutler Hammer 100 amp 20 space main breaker panel cover. I told him that its an outdated panel (20 space not 22), at least 20 years old it has the main breaker on top (not like the new panels.) My CH supply guy called the manufacturer and they said to go to a metal shop to get one fabricated. Any thoughts?
 

renosteinke

Senior Member
Location
NE Arkansas
Sure ... I've had stuff made by both dedicated metal shops as well as by HVAC shops.

Next stop is the pro paint shop, where they can mix paint to spot-on match the original color.

Listed? No. Legal? Maybe. Can you get away with it? Absolutely.
 

dhalleron

Senior Member
Location
Louisville, KY
I just worked at a house the other day where someone must have lost the original inside cover to an outdoor panel. They found a cover that fit except there was no cutout for the main breaker at the top center. It looked like they cut out the space with a dull pocket knife. It was crude but it seemed to work.
 

cowboyjwc

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Simi Valley, CA
I just like to remind guys that the covers and deadfronts are made out of a certain gauge metal for a reason. Sheet metal is not really the best option, but I don't have any trouble with having one made by a metal shop. Maybe you could borrow one from the neighbor so that they have a template.
 

Riograndeelectric

Senior Member
Maybe you could borrow one from the neighbor so that they have a template.

I have done this before borrowed a neighboors dead front on a pushmatic panel. Sheet metal shop was able to duplicate perfectlly.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
.. Sheet metal is not really the best option, but I don't have any trouble with having one made by a metal shop...

And what do think the metal shop will make it out of, or for that matter what the original was made from? I think you probably are refering to light guage sheet metals like what is typically used for HVAC ducts. Panelboard cabinets and covers are also made of sheet metal, just thicker stock.
 

Fulthrotl

~Autocorrect is My Worst Enema.~
I just like to remind guys that the covers and deadfronts are made out of a certain gauge metal for a reason. Sheet metal is not really the best option, but I don't have any trouble with having one made by a metal shop. Maybe you could borrow one from the neighbor so that they have a template.

the guy i go do is a commercial kitchen fabricator near my house, so everything
i get is 12 or 14 gauge 304 stainless.... he doesn't do mild steel....
i've gutted old panels and made them into j boxes, take off the meter
bezel and all the guts, make up a stainless cover, put it on...
never had an inspector have a problem with anything like that.
same with zinsco dead fronts... he shears, welds them up, bends em,
and it's usually less than $100
 

maghazadeh

Senior Member
Location
Campbell CA
Have you tried a supply house that buys and sales used electrical equipment?
A lots of times I have been lucky to find old and discontinue staff and covers.
 

renosteinke

Senior Member
Location
NE Arkansas
Where does the code say panel covers must be listed?

Hate to break this to you, but there are no listed panel covers, panel cases, or panel bussbars. There are only complete assemblies listed- and the NEC requires the use of a listed panel. The cover is part of that assembly. Replace it with something else, or remove it, and you enter the "we can't say if the listing is maintained" territory. So, technically, your own shop-made panel cover is no substitute for the factory original.

Another factor is that the NEC requires panels to have certain markings, and these markings are typically on the panel cover. Your replacement cover will lack these required lables.

As for making them from sheet metal .... UL has various requirements for the panel covers. There is a certain gauge (thickness) required. The light aluminum used by roofers as flashing material is not nearly thick enough. Also, in a change from the past, the metal is no required to be galvanized. So, when I made my covers I used metal of a thickness similar to the original, and galvanized. I tried to match the original cover as best I could.

We have another thread (in the NEC forum) regarding someone making an extension for a pull box. IMO, the same issues, and arguments, apply. In those situations I take the burden on myself, and I want to be able to point to the UL standard and tell the inspector: my piece may not be listed, but I'm certain it would pass were it submitted.
 

jmellc

Senior Member
Location
Durham, NC
Occupation
Facility Maintenance Tech. Licensed Electrician
I have had covers made by a local metal shop. They can do anything except the type with "bubbles", such as ones bubbled out to clear a breaker handle. As far as thickness issues, measure thickness & spec that to metal shop & that it be weatherproof. Can also paint it. Most colors I've seen have something close available in spray paint. Tan, grey & blue are most common colors. I have not had occasion to use one on an inspected job, but have mentioned issue to a local inspector. He said OK with him if cover was sturdy & covered all gaps. Times I've used them was replacing existing breaker, mending a burned wire, etc. & replacing cover as extra on that. Stuff that does not require permits in this area.

If you cannot find a similar cover for template, make a cardboard template yourself. Measure panel & breakers, screw holes, etc.

If you want an original, Southland Electric in Burlington, NC may have something. # is 336-227-1486. I used to keep a few old covers & various parts for "just in case", but the clutter was too much. I'm cluttered enough with current stuff.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Where does the code say panel covers must be listed?

Hate to break this to you, but there are no listed panel covers, panel cases, or panel bussbars. There are only complete assemblies listed- and the NEC requires the use of a listed panel. The cover is part of that assembly. Replace it with something else, or remove it, and you enter the "we can't say if the listing is maintained" territory. So, technically, your own shop-made panel cover is no substitute for the factory original.

Another factor is that the NEC requires panels to have certain markings, and these markings are typically on the panel cover. Your replacement cover will lack these required lables.

Are you certain about this? A panelboard and a cabinet are two separate items. The small "loadcenters" are usually sold as panelboard with enclosure. Most commercial/industrial panelboards usually are a separate item from the enclosure as well as the cover. Just so happens they make enclosures and covers that trim things pretty well, and normally will cost less than if you were to take the time to make something yourself anyway.

Funny thing is people mention the thickness of the cover and how important that is, yet most breaker filler plates designed to fit these covers are thin plastic. Just an observation.
 

renosteinke

Senior Member
Location
NE Arkansas
Yes, I am certain.

A review of this topic, as discussed in the UL White Book, will reveal that the panels are listed only for use with those accessories that were there when they tested them.

Now, just to pull one manufacturer out of thin air, ..... when Square D submits a panel for testing, they also provide every cover, ground bar, breaker, etc., that might be used with that panel. Oddly enough, Square D neglects to provide any Cutler-Hammer or GE items with their submission. The UL White Book uses the specific example of using a 'foreign' ground bar in a panel to illustrate the 'we don't know/ can't tell if the listing is maintained' argument.

This was a pretty good way for a manufacturer to ensure that only his stuff got used ... until that upstart Taiwan manufacturer submitted his breakers along with Square D's panels for testing. Thus began the great "classified vs. listed breaker" debate.

If an off-brand ground bar is enough to call the listing into question, using a site-made cover is an absolute foul- at least from UL's perspective. Your goal- driven by dire necessity- is to make sure no one starts digging. That's why I was so fussy about the paint.
 

cowboyjwc

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Simi Valley, CA
And what do think the metal shop will make it out of, or for that matter what the original was made from? I think you probably are refering to light guage sheet metals like what is typically used for HVAC ducts. Panelboard cabinets and covers are also made of sheet metal, just thicker stock.

Why yes I was.
 

jim dungar

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Wisconsin
Occupation
PE (Retired) - Power Systems
... the NEC requires the use of a listed panel...
Please quote the specific 'chapter and verse' that says this.

Again, for those localities that do require everything to be listed, what do you do when no listing exists?

UL does not claim that a field fabricated cover 'automatically negates' the listing, rather they say they will help the AHJ in making a determination if they are requested to do so.
 

renosteinke

Senior Member
Location
NE Arkansas
Where does the code require the use of listed panels?
Well, we can start with 110.2, which says equipment "shall be acceptable only if approved."

Perhaps one might assert that 'approved' is not the same as 'listed.' In that instance, I would point you to 110.3(B), where it says listed equipment shall be used in accordance with the listing.

Please note that I never said anything 'negates' a listing. Substituting a field-made cover certainly puts it in the category of "we don't know," as explained by the White Book. That is, UL cannot vouch for anything that they have not examined. In effect, this means that UL will not agree that any part of the product, in any way, meets their standards- without examining it. Strictly speaking, you can't say the listing is 'violated,' because what is there just might be acceptable. Or, it might not. There's no way for UL to tell. UL's acceptance might depend on something as 'minor' as to where the original manufacturer stuck his lables. Will your replacement cover also list the various systems for which the panel was listed?

Ultimately, only UL can speak for UL. I happen to believe that I'm better at guessing what UL will say than most.

A field evaluation? Lots of luck. With rates starting in the thousands of dollars, that option is pretty much off the table. If you think the UL rep will just drop by the job site and say 'gee, that looks OK to me,' you have another think coming. Oh, no ... you get to fly the UL engineer there, rent his room, pay his hourly rate (with a daily minimum), maybe send pieces to the lab for further evaluation, etc. You want their opinion, you're going to pay for it.

Oddly enough, the NEC does not ever mention UL. They do, however, mention the AHJ. It's the AHJ's call. Now, if you can produce a standard that says 'make a cover this way,' and you did, chances are the AHJ will agree that what you have is fine. Likewise, if you show the AHJ a perfect copy, he'll likely approve.

To repeat myself: it's easier for all concerned if the AHJ never notices.
 

jim dungar

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Wisconsin
Occupation
PE (Retired) - Power Systems
Where does the code require the use of listed panels?
Well, we can start with 110.2, which says equipment "shall be acceptable only if approved."

Perhaps one might assert that 'approved' is not the same as 'listed.' In that instance, I would point you to 110.3(B), where it says listed equipment shall be used in accordance with the listing.
'Approved' is absolutely not the same as 'listed'.

Again, what do people do when no listing is available?
The original listing on the panel only said the panel met the appropriate standards when it left the factory. Any and all field modifications, including the method used for mounting to the wall, must be approved by the AHJ. So how do we handle an obsolete product, using decades(?) old listing standards?
 

jmellc

Senior Member
Location
Durham, NC
Occupation
Facility Maintenance Tech. Licensed Electrician
Suppose:

Cover is made that is same thickness & rigidity, or greater, than the panel itself.

Cover has no sharp edges, no burrs, no clamps that pinch wire.

Cover fits well, totally covers all live parts, properly encloses breakers.

Cover stays well secured with screws similar to most currently in use, or original screws.

Cover is protected against corrosion.

If outdoor, cover seals out rain in a similar manner to factory made covers.

Any authority raising issues with that item has no common sense and should not be an authority, IMHO.
 
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