jack357
Member
- Location
- HAMBURG NEW YORK USA
when wireing between the 3/ways is 14/3 allowed on 20 amp circuits when the only load is about 100 watts ( no lite kit)
three way sw's for ceiling fans
- Thread starter jack357
- Start date
- Status
- Location
- Chapel Hill, NC
- Occupation
- Retired Electrical Contractor
There must be a hundred threads on questions like this. Generally the question is if the switch leg can be 14 awg on a 12 awg circuit. The answer is no.
Sierrasparky
Senior Member
- Location
- USA
- Occupation
- Electrician ,contractor
didn't someone post a while back that their jurisdiction allowed such a install even though the code forbids it.
jack357
Member
- Location
- HAMBURG NEW YORK USA
thanks for the reply's ,I didn't think the code allowed it but I can see
no safty issue, as the current would neve be more than a few amps
bring new to the site, I will look for answers in past threads befor I
ask any more questions
thanks again for the respons
no safty issue, as the current would neve be more than a few amps
bring new to the site, I will look for answers in past threads befor I
ask any more questions
thanks again for the respons
hurk27
Senior Member
- Location
- Portage, Indiana NEC: 2008
You can put a 14AWG on a circuit with 12 AWG all you want but the OCPD better be a 15 amp device:happyyes:
I know that is what you we meaning just didn't want others to think if there was #12 used then no #14
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
I understand why you think this way but if that is the case why not use even smaller conductors. Do you see no safety issue with 18 or 20 awg conductors - as the current would never be more than a few amps?
Just another way to look at it.
Regardless of what the other poster stated, there is no need to research entire site before asking a question you do not know, that is the purpose of the site, to help each other.
hillbilly1
Senior Member
- Location
- North Georgia mountains
- Occupation
- Owner/electrical contractor
The reasoning behind not allowing it is that during a remodel, the switch may get turned into an outlet, then you could possibly overload it.
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
I really don't think that is the case. If it were why couldn't you change the conductor when that time comes?
240.4 tells us a conductor must be protected at or below its ampacity except for certain conditions. This particular condition is not one of those permitted.
hillbilly1
Senior Member
- Location
- North Georgia mountains
- Occupation
- Owner/electrical contractor
One word "Homeowners"
Sierrasparky
Senior Member
- Location
- USA
- Occupation
- Electrician ,contractor
- Location
- Connecticut
- Occupation
- Engineer
Actually Two words " Handyman and Homeowners"
I think "Handyman and Homeowners" is three words.:slaphead:
renosteinke
Senior Member
- Location
- NE Arkansas
"Why couldn't you change the conductor when that time comes?"
Grrrr ...
How many times have we seen the ground wire used as a switch leg for ceiling fans, when the ordinary light was replaced by a fan, and the customer wanted the motor and light controlled separately at the wall switch?
Replace the wire ... as if that's ever going to happen when a cable wiring method is used. Folks won't want to open the walls, crawl the attic (if there is one), or open the ceiling (if there isn't).
More important ... we begin our trade, our code, with certain assumtpions. Change the assumptions, and nothing makes sense anymore. In this instance, the assumption is that the wire is sized to the overcurrent device- not to the load. Loads can change. Any fault that occurs will be limited by the breaker size- not the load- in any event.
Ze lo tov ledebr bsefa shni bemza debra. That's "Pig MidEast" for "it's no good to change languages in the middle of a conversation.' Just like it's no good to change rules in the middle of the game. In this case, you want to change the way we size wires to using the load, rather than the breaker. No Way.
Grrrr ...
How many times have we seen the ground wire used as a switch leg for ceiling fans, when the ordinary light was replaced by a fan, and the customer wanted the motor and light controlled separately at the wall switch?
Replace the wire ... as if that's ever going to happen when a cable wiring method is used. Folks won't want to open the walls, crawl the attic (if there is one), or open the ceiling (if there isn't).
More important ... we begin our trade, our code, with certain assumtpions. Change the assumptions, and nothing makes sense anymore. In this instance, the assumption is that the wire is sized to the overcurrent device- not to the load. Loads can change. Any fault that occurs will be limited by the breaker size- not the load- in any event.
Ze lo tov ledebr bsefa shni bemza debra. That's "Pig MidEast" for "it's no good to change languages in the middle of a conversation.' Just like it's no good to change rules in the middle of the game. In this case, you want to change the way we size wires to using the load, rather than the breaker. No Way.
glene77is
Senior Member
- Location
- Memphis, TN
You can put a 14AWG on a circuit with 12 AWG all you want but the OCPD better be a 15 amp device:happyyes:
I know that is what you we meaning just didn't want others to think if there was #12 used then no #14
Hurk, right again.
Point is,
you cannot predict what the HO is going to install after the inspection,
and
the NEC should be followed during install to protect both the customer and the EC.
Last edited:
readydave8
re member
- Location
- Clarkesville, Georgia
- Occupation
- electrician
Actually Two words " Handyman and Homeowners"
Handymen and Homeowners and Hopelesslyineptcarpenters (trying to keep the h thing going but not doing so very well)
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
The non professional will do whatever they wish most of the time anyway. Why do we need to have some of the rules we have just because of non professionals.
One good example: re identifying a white conductor from a cable that is landed on a breaker instead of being used as a neutral. Who does this benefit? Find me one good electrician that doesn't have a clue this wire is not a neutral even if it is not marked. My opinion is same for a re identified white in a switch leg. 1. If you don't know this is not a grounded conductor you probably don't need to be messing with it anyway. 2. Grounded or not grounded you should still only work on it with the power off.
hillbilly1
Senior Member
- Location
- North Georgia mountains
- Occupation
- Owner/electrical contractor
Re-identification of the white wire on switch legs is another example, a compentent electrician would know the white would be a "Hot", but the code making panel decided to require it to be identifed so the "Diy Homeowner" would not be confused by the white wire. Same as the ground fault protection on garage door openers, homeowners were plugging extension cords into them, and running the circuit outside.
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
the GFCI on the garage door opener I can understand. The user is not taking things apart in that case, they are just using it and happened to discover that for some reason they don't lose power as easily when using that outlet. But identification of white conductors has always been mostly stupid IMO. I have never once questioned an unmarked white in a switch loop or a white on a circuit breaker, I knew it had to be a hot lead. If I ever am in a situation where I am not sure that is what a meter is for. How do I know someone didn't tape it because they got a little carried away with the knife when they were stripping it? Seen and done that before. For the non professional that knows to re mark these it just gives them more fuel of thinking they know what they are doing when it really is only a small thing that doesn't matter very much. Once you put the cover on the box the house is not going to burn down because you didn't physically identify a conductor.
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