Making a decent living in this trade anymore? PA guys?

[KVA]

I'm new here and have been reading this forum for years and gained HUGE amounts of knowledge from here:thumbsup:

I have been trying to really get my business going the last year + and it's a struggle. I have been doing side work for years in the area along with working for contractors (yeah i know...) I live in the suburbs of Philadelphia and in a state that has no statewide license. I focus mainly on residential old work and light commercial. The residential part is getting to the point where I don't see you can make any money let alone a decent living. Since this state has no statewide license everyone who has swapped out an outlet or replaced a fixture is a fully qualified electrician it seems.

I haven't really advertised anywhere besides Craigslist and 95% of the people who call me are delusional about what electricians charge.

For example I had a call yesterday from a lady I got work from on craigslist before. She wants 4 recessed lights in her living room with a dimmer. There is no power in the ceiling and it's plaster. I gave her a price of $650 including materials and she said "ohhhh" but she didn't flat out say no. She said the room needs it and she rather me do the work and said I'll get you to replace outlets while your here. She said I'll call you Wednesday so we can set it up for friday possibly. Well it's Wednesday....no call. Not sure if I should wait a day and call her? or just keep it moving?

I would be happy making $40k a year minimum obviously I'd be happy with more but I doubt that could happen in this state if your focused mainly on resi.

Any input or advice you can give me? Especially PA guys thanks.

 

[svh19044]

Your biggest problem is advertising on craigslist. There are too many fly by night guys that do horrible work, yet charge pennies compared to what is needed for a business. Go hook up with some of those meeting groups in the area, and start talking with the evil contractors. This area is very heavily driven by contractors, they are everywhere. There are also a lot of high end clientele which go by referral, and the easiest way to break in to the group is by the previously mentioned contractors. $40k is easily obtainable in residential, ESPECIALLY in the Philly burbs. Just remember that it's a business built on referrals and obviously that takes time.

As you have noticed by now, a lot of ec's are going under, mostly do to growing too fast and having too much overhead. Hang with it for the next couple years and you will see the light. It's an unfortunate situation for those going under, but it is the risk we all take.

Also, take as many small commercial job bids that you can. There are thousands of small office renovations going on in bucks/mont right now with property owners looking to fill their long time vacant space.

 

[cadpoint]

I caught a Charlie Rose show last night and his guest was Jim Collins, his book was "Great by Choice". To parphrase the idea his book was to sieze the moment, and overviewed how others have done it.

http://www.charlierose.com/

Not that it's an end all but one possible avenue...

 

[Fulthrotl]

I'm new here and have been reading this forum for years and gained HUGE amounts of knowledge from here:thumbsup:

I have been trying to really get my business going the last year + and it's a struggle. I have been doing side work for years in the area along with working for contractors (yeah i know...) I live in the suburbs of Philadelphia and in a state that has no statewide license. I focus mainly on residential old work and light commercial. The residential part is getting to the point where I don't see you can make any money let alone a decent living. Since this state has no statewide license everyone who has swapped out an outlet or replaced a fixture is a fully qualified electrician it seems.

I haven't really advertised anywhere besides Craigslist and 95% of the people who call me are delusional about what electricians charge.

For example I had a call yesterday from a lady I got work from on craigslist before. She wants 4 recessed lights in her living room with a dimmer. There is no power in the ceiling and it's plaster. I gave her a price of $650 including materials and she said "ohhhh" but she didn't flat out say no. She said the room needs it and she rather me do the work and said I'll get you to replace outlets while your here. She said I'll call you Wednesday so we can set it up for friday possibly. Well it's Wednesday....no call. Not sure if I should wait a day and call her? or just keep it moving?

I would be happy making $40k a year minimum obviously I'd be happy with more but I doubt that could happen in this state if your focused mainly on resi.

Any input or advice you can give me? Especially PA guys thanks.

allow me to share with you how the left coast is working....
people are doing can lights here for $60 a hole.

from the orange county craigslist......

=====
We are fully licensed electricians with over 15 years experience in residential lighting.
6" can lights installed for $60 ea including top quality nora and elco materials.
Often times we can install lighting without making any unwanted holes in your walls or ceilings.

Also offering all manner of residential electric work.
=====

welcome to your delusional customers source of information.

i freely tell anyone who asks me for a price on anything,
that there is someone on craigslist who will do it cheaper
than i will.

'cause they will. some of them speak english and everything.

here is the strategy.... the can lights are so cheap, well,
while he is here, lets add a few more....

now, once we have the joist pattern down the difference between
six can lights and ten can lights isn't that much extra work.

so.... i do six can lights at 100 each in a living room.. that eats a
fair chunk of the day.... i make 600 less 80, or 520 at the end of
the day.

or, being the low price leader, i do ten lights at 60 each, add 115
for the switch, cause my price on lights is so low that i have to
charge for that switch ala carte.... i make 715, less 140 for materials,
and come home 90 minutes later with $575

or, i say $650 for four lights, and then sit on the computer,
cause i didn't go to work that day.

can lights are what you do with dead time while waiting for something
good to show up.

i did 15 of them last week. life's like that.

 

[GUNNING]

Put a new hat on and ADVERTISE!

Put a new hat on and ADVERTISE!

If you buy water mellons for a dollar a piece and sell them for 99 cents you cant make it up on volume.

Sell value, which is code for cost more because I'm going to do a better job. Drive a new van and wrap it.
Clean up, clean polite help, little booties, patch holes or better yet don't make any. Tell them how safe you work to not make them sick because there house has lead and you keep your jobs clean and wont turn their children into zombie mouth breathers.

RETURN PHONE CALLS and KEEP APOINTMENT TIMES. SCHEDULE giving yourself and or your help enough time to complete the job in good order.

Advertise, get the work you want by advertising where they read. GOOGLE... look at your competition and get there web miesters to spin you a web. The more money you spend on appropriate advertising the better your results. Join several synagog's, churches of several denominations and civic groups like the Rotarians, Masons, Boy Scouts, Habitat for Humanity etc... Might not help but it will make your Karma better. Actually I still know the contractors that ran Habitat 15 years ago and have worked with them since. Very nice honest contractors. Can't say that about everyone.


Newspapers, they have little old ladies on Soc Sec sitting drinking coffee reading the service directory. You are in the house of Poor Richards Almanac by Mr B himself. There are also bid announcements at the beginning of the classifieds. Join a plan room.

Put cards up on bulletin boards and target affluent neighborhoods. Go down the list of Property Management companies in the yellow pages and mail them your card and rates. May need to do that several (3) times and follow up with phone calls. Remember you will need several hats. Make sure you have one on for every hour of the day. 24/7

 

[ramsy]

I'm new ..gained HUGE amounts of knowledge from here:thumbsup:..have been doing side work for years.. I don't see ..any money let alone a decent living.

Traditional exit strategies for trade contractors, who are beyond the point of no return, used to be city, fire, or plan-check inspector, or arbitration cleric for contracting disputes, etc..

The government meal ticket, or iron-rice bowl, was a golden retirement; perhaps no longer with recent crisis & furloughs. That leaves supply houses, home centers, and perhaps architectural estimators, hiring trade credentials for slightly more than minimum wage. Perhaps less available to old codgers who can't twist around in crawl spaces anymore.

Old codgers at the end of their trade could have social security or self-employment IRA's, if funded. Among the contractors I've asked, very little is funded or saved, and if the spouse didn't stick around to support them, the most common retirement plan was, "a bullet for my gun".

My 75yr old father was a Geology professor for 40 years before layoffs got him in 2011, however, his Public Employee Retirement System (PERS) for teachers was fully funded, his house is paid off, he won't need spousal support, and sidework keeps him alive doing a Geology distance-learning curriculum online, for a local community college, with some help from his computer-nerd sons.

A 40 year career seems impossible today, much less a government career, but perhaps what old professors and trade codgers have in common are that side work remained prerequisite for survival, and not getting screwed by "Caveat emptor" remained a full-time job.

 

[PetrosA]

Look like a respectable contractor
Act like a respectable contractor
Charge like a respectable contractor

Craigslist isn't where respectable contractors advertise. Not because craigslist is bad per se, but in any kind of advertising, you're trying to reach a target audience and the people on craigslist are looking for deals. If they weren't, they'd be shopping full price at boutique shops and those are the customers you want. Hunt the big bucks instead of driving around looking for fresh road kill hoping you can get the scent sacs cut off before the meat goes bad

Finding good GCs to work with will go a long way if you can swing it as can making friends with people at supply houses and lighting showrooms. They can send a lot of customers your way if they feel you're worth recommending. Good luck.

 

[Strife]

I find that EXTREMELY hard to believe from a mathematical perspective.
I know cans got really cheap lately, but I still have to see a can+trim+lamp at $ 14.00 each. Never mind as little rommex, connectors, and wire nuts you'd need.
But that's not my biggest mathematical dilemma. Are you seriously telling me you're installing and wiring a can in 9 minutes? Never mind picking the material, unpacking, cleaning. And in those 9 minutes a fixture you're throwing a switch there too?

or, being the low price leader, i do ten lights at 60 each, add 115
for the switch, cause my price on lights is so low that i have to
charge for that switch ala carte.... i make 715, less 140 for materials,
and come home 90 minutes later with $575

 

[Sierrasparky]

allow me to share with you how the left coast is working....
people are doing can lights here for $60 a hole.

from the orange county craigslist......

=====
We are fully licensed electricians with over 15 years experience in residential lighting.
6" can lights installed for $60 ea including top quality nora and elco materials.
Often times we can install lighting without making any unwanted holes in your walls or ceilings.

Also offering all manner of residential electric work.
=====

welcome to your delusional customers source of information.

i freely tell anyone who asks me for a price on anything,
that there is someone on craigslist who will do it cheaper
than i will.

'cause they will. some of them speak english and everything.

here is the strategy.... the can lights are so cheap, well,
while he is here, lets add a few more....

now, once we have the joist pattern down the difference between
six can lights and ten can lights isn't that much extra work.

so.... i do six can lights at 100 each in a living room.. that eats a
fair chunk of the day.... i make 600 less 80, or 520 at the end of
the day.

or, being the low price leader, i do ten lights at 60 each, add 115
for the switch, cause my price on lights is so low that i have to
charge for that switch ala carte.... i make 715, less 140 for materials,
and come home 90 minutes later with $575

or, i say $650 for four lights, and then sit on the computer,
cause i didn't go to work that day.

can lights are what you do with dead time while waiting for something
good to show up.

i did 15 of them last week. life's like that.

So tell me how do you do all that and include the permit. You are working in California yes?
You do know that New requires a permit!

 

[Fulthrotl]

So tell me how do you do all that and include the permit. You are working in California yes?
You do know that New requires a permit!

to strife and sierra sparky...... perhaps i wasn't clear....
i was speaking in the "royal we".... i put can lights in
for $100 a hole, and i was giving a for instance of what
doing it for less entails. i don't do it for less. i live in a
house, and eat something better than top ramen, thanks.

i just opened up craigslist for orange county,calif, and grabbed
the first "can light express" in "skilled trades". there's half a
dozen of them there at any given time.

i didn't say *I* was doing them for $60. i said "they" were.

i didn't say there was anything resembling a permit, business
license, inspection, or anything else about this install.

$60 gets you a HD halo can, the cheapest trim they make, and a
light bulb. everything else is an upgrade.

switches are extra. everything is extra. i saw one of these can light
wizards going down the road, in a wrapped truck, and called the
number... the fellow explained that he has 8 trucks doing nothing
but can lights... and he was sitting there booking them, not putting
them in...

now, can lights may need a permit and inspection, but in the golden
state, let me assure you that is not happening a lot.

this was in response to the OP, who was feeling sad and forlorn.

i was just trying to cheer him up, and make him grateful he isn't
trying to sell can lights here.....

how'd i do?

 

[Sierrasparky]

now, can lights may need a permit and inspection, but in the golden
state, let me assure you that is not happening a lot.

fulthrotl are you saying that in your neck of the woods installing "new can lights" " may " require a permit?

Well I suppose you are not aware of the CA Electric code and what is inside.
Take a look at

89.108.4 PERMITS, FEES, APPLICATIONS AND​

INSPECTIONS

89.108.4.1 Permits. ​

(a) Except as exempted inparagraph (b) of this subsection, a written constructionpermit shall be obtainedfrom the enforcing agency priorto the erection, construction, reconstruction, installation,​

relocation, or alteration ofany electrical system.

1. Listed cord and plug connected temporarydecorative lighting.
2. Reinstallation ofattachment plug receptacles, butnot the outlets therefor.
3. Repair or replacement of branch circuitovercurrent devices of the required capacity in thesame location.
4. Installation or maintenance of communicationswiring, devices, appliances, apparatus or​

equipment

The only thing use EC can do is replace a Receptacle or a Breaker without a permit!

Ca cities and counties must have adopted this or produced a more restrictive code. I say this because from what I have been told by the Building and standards commision when I complained about the harsh restrictions. If you were not aware of this then you need to become a aware!

 

[ramsy]

Sierrasparky's inquiry on permits was heard by the License Board, which published an official response today:
http://www.cslb.ca.gov/GeneralInformation/Newsroom/PressReleases/PressReleases2011/News20111116.asp

 

[Fulthrotl]

fulthrotl are you saying that in your neck of the woods installing "new can lights" " may " require a permit?

Well I suppose you are not aware of the CA Electric code and what is inside.

firstly, feel free to say anything insulting you wish from here on.
enjoy the sense of power and perceived superiority it gives you.
i just "added" you to my block list.. i'm not sure if "added" is the
correct word, as you are the only one on it. you are special.

in any event, what i probably should have spelled out for you in
my previous post, as you seem to have a hard time comprehending
what i wrote, is that most of the people doing dirt cheap can lights
in southern california, are NOT pulling permits on them.

i did not say that *I* was doing dirt cheap can lights, nor did i speak
to the permitting issue that has you in such a froth.

it's wednesday. i've generated billing of $4,312 for this week, material
costs were $655 and rest assured, none of it was earned doing can lights.

that's all you need to know about me.
i already know more about you than i want to.

Edit:
Are you sure you want to add Sierrasparky to your ignore list?

oh, yeah......

 

[rodneee]

to strife and sierra sparky...... perhaps i wasn't clear....
i was speaking in the "royal we".... i put can lights in
for $100 a hole, and i was giving a for instance of what
doing it for less entails. i don't do it for less. i live in a
house, and eat something better than top ramen, thanks.

i just opened up craigslist for orange county,calif, and grabbed
the first "can light express" in "skilled trades". there's half a
dozen of them there at any given time.

i didn't say *I* was doing them for $60. i said "they" were.

i didn't say there was anything resembling a permit, business
license, inspection, or anything else about this install.

$60 gets you a HD halo can, the cheapest trim they make, and a
light bulb. everything else is an upgrade.

switches are extra. everything is extra. i saw one of these can light
wizards going down the road, in a wrapped truck, and called the
number... the fellow explained that he has 8 trucks doing nothing
but can lights... and he was sitting there booking them, not putting
them in...

now, can lights may need a permit and inspection, but in the golden
state, let me assure you that is not happening a lot.

this was in response to the OP, who was feeling sad and forlorn.

i was just trying to cheer him up, and make him grateful he isn't
trying to sell can lights here.....

how'd i do?

you did fine in post #4...then you get put on trial for improper permitting, posts 8 & 9 (laugh laugh)... and because they misunderstood you, you now feel you must then justify yourself in post #10...I LOVE THIS PLACE...and since you are being so nice to the original poster; explain to him the difference between starting and maintaining a business versus running a string of extended side jobs.. explain as kindly as you can, that his start up capital is severely underfunded...try not to hurt his feelings when saying so.. then be ready to be the target of the critics.. oh, and also tell him that other thing i heard on this site... do not take on any jobs that would create a problem for you if you never get paid...

 

[Fulthrotl]

you did fine in post #4...then you get put on trial for improper permitting, posts 8 & 9 (laugh laugh)... and because they misunderstood you, you now feel you must then justify yourself in post #10...I LOVE THIS PLACE...and since you are being so nice to the original poster; explain to him the difference between starting and maintaining a business versus running a string of extended side jobs.. explain as kindly as you can, that his start up capital is severely underfunded...try not to hurt his feelings when saying so.. then be ready to be the target of the critics.. oh, and also tell him that other thing i heard on this site... do not take on any jobs that would create a problem for you if you never get paid...

you covered all the major points pretty well..

but for most all of us, it is a job at a time, and you develop associations that
lead to repeat buisness, and really all any of us has is those associations....

and one thing leads to another... friend of mine, known him 20 years, has a paving
company, and we are going to take one of his clients out to lunch after thanksgiving, and
that fellow needs an electrician....

but right now being a sparky is the hardest row to hoe i have seen in 34 years doing this.

if you are undercapitalized, well, so are the customers.

20 years ago, all i had to do was tell a couple people i was doing work, and word of
mouth got me going pretty well.... its not like that anymore.

 

[Strife]

20 years ago, all i had to do was tell a couple people i was doing work, and word of
mouth got me going pretty well.... its not like that anymore.

I agree with that, even good customers get picky these days.
Had one of good customers two weeks ago inquiring to install receptacles in two places where they have a light mounted on a round post. Figured two of the square perma posts (that allow you to install a receptacle on it), 2 WR GFI's, 1.5-2.0 hr labor. Told him 140 each. He told me he'll get back to me. I mean this is a customer I do work for all the time. He's gonna shop around for 280 dollars? And is not really 280 dollars, materials are least 80 and even one hr labor at 50 brings it to 130, so he's gonna shop around for about a 100 bucks?

 

[Fulthrotl]

I agree with that, even good customers get picky these days.
Had one of good customers two weeks ago inquiring to install receptacles in two places where they have a light mounted on a round post. Figured two of the square perma posts (that allow you to install a receptacle on it), 2 WR GFI's, 1.5-2.0 hr labor. Told him 140 each. He told me he'll get back to me. I mean this is a customer I do work for all the time. He's gonna shop around for 280 dollars? And is not really 280 dollars, materials are least 80 and even one hr labor at 50 brings it to 130, so he's gonna shop around for about a 100 bucks?

then it goes the other way.... i got a referral to put in a dedicated 20 amp circuit for a sign... T Bar, a quickie....
and the lady is thrilled, the sign won't be ready for a month, but she has to pay me in full for the work tomorrow
when i tell her how much i want, and i can do the work when i have the time... she wants to know if she gives me
a check tomorrow for the full amount, will i deposit it immediately?

he fiscal year ends thanksgiving day..... that's the second company i've seen that started their fiscal year on thanksgiving.

weird.

should i start a poll, to see if i should take the money?