Your method of getting a cable from the wall to the ceiling

[M4gery]

I know that there are many different methods of fishing wire and I am always interested in hearing how other electricians do it. In this instance I am curious how you get a cable from the wall into the ceiling when you have no access from above. For example, you need to instal a fan, chandelier, or set of high hats in the ceiling of a room on the first floor of a 2-story house. You run a feed up into a switchbox in the wall from the basement, now you have to go from the switchbox in the wall up into the ceiling.

I've seen various ways, everything from cutting a huge hole in the wall big enough to fit an entire drill as well as a hole in the ceiling big enough to get your whole arm in- to notching the sheetrock out and running the romex against the side of the top plate and then mudding right over it.

So how do you do this?

 

[kwired]

Depending on what kind of floor is above you can cut a hole(s) in the floor to reach into to do what is necessary.

If it is carpet pull up the carpet, do your thing, plug the holes, and reinstall the carpet.

Every installation has it own set of conditions that dictate how it will be done. There is no one answer that works every time.

 

[M4gery]

Wow, I've never heard of someone cutting the floor open from above or pulling the carpet. Do you have one of those kicker things that carpet installers use to properly stretch the carpet back onto the tackless? Do you feel that cutting a hole in flooring and then patching it securely to keep it rated for a live load is easier than cutting into the wall or ceiling fron down below?

 

[kwired]

Wow, I've never heard of someone cutting the floor open from above or pulling the carpet. Do you have one of those kicker things that carpet installers use to properly stretch the carpet back onto the tackless? Do you feel that cutting a hole in flooring and then patching it securely to keep it rated for a live load is easier than cutting into the wall or ceiling fron down below?

If you want to you can put a floor outlet in the hole. Would you question the effect on the floor for something like that? HVAC guys cut holes in the floor all the time where their registers are installed.

Putting carpet back is a lot less work and is easier to cover up than patching plaster or drywall and trying to match a texture or even match paint on a wall or ceiling.

If you have a hardwood floor above this may not be an option. You can hire a carpet installer or rent a kicker if you don't have one.

 

[Hv&Lv]

If you want to you can put a floor outlet in the hole. Would you question the effect on the floor for something like that? HVAC guys cut holes in the floor all the time where their registers are installed.

Putting carpet back is a lot less work and is easier to cover up than patching plaster or drywall and trying to match a texture or even match paint on a wall or ceiling.

If you have a hardwood floor above this may not be an option. You can hire a carpet installer or rent a kicker if you don't have one.

I have taken up an entire 4x8 piece of underlayment in a room upstairs for the addition of a light. I agree that at first it seems like a lot more work, but like you said, the patching and matching will be next to impossible. I have a knee kicker I bought at an auction.

 

[svh19044]

It sounds more like carpentry than electrical at this point of the thread.

1. Cut switch box and light box in.

2. Fish power up wall from basement.

3. Drill hole up inside cavity of switch box wall with 6' flex bit, adding extensions when necessary (9'+ ceilings).

4. Stick camera in to make sure all is clear.

5. Put flex bit in to light box cutout, drill through first joist.

6. Stick camera in to make sure all is clear.

7. Repeat 5 and 6 for necessary amount of joists.

8. Put string loosely on end of fish stick, and stick fish stick through either opening, through necessary holes.

9. Get fish stick with hook, stick in to other end, move around until you feel the other fish stick.

10. Slowly pull out fish stick with string, until the fish stick with hook grabs string.

11. Pull string out of hole with hook fish stick.

12. Attach wire to string.

No holes, no mess, no worries. This method always works in the given scenario.

 

[M4gery]

svh19044, that's a great method, I've done it a few times. The only difference is that I have magnets with 8/32 threaded screws that will thread onto the end of most fishsticks, so instead of trying to hook the string I "mate the magnets" and pass along a short piece of chain attached to a drag line instead.

The only concern I have with the "hole-less" method is that drilling blindly thru joists can easily lead to cutting a cable stapled to the other side of it, or maybe even drilling thru an odd pipe run. Because of that worry, I now just make a hole under each joist so I can inspect the situation and then drill across with full vision of where I'm going. I don't mind patching small holes, I use a fast setting mud to make a solid rough patch and let the customer finish it off.

 

[George Stolz]

5. Put flex bit in to light box cutout, drill through first joist.

5(a). Drill through sewer drain pipe in next bay over.
5(b). Call plumber.
5(c). Continue drilling through floor joists and nail NM cable in the next bay.
5(d). Convince homeowner to install can light under flying splices above can to repair damaged NM.
5(e). Continue drilling from new can hole, drill hole through supply lines to upstairs sink.
5(f). Shut off main water lines in the house. Call plumber asking for an updated time of arrival. Call drywaller to repair damaged drywall from water line leaks.
5(g). Continue drilling through floor joists, nail SE-R from service to main panel.
5(h). Offer the neighbor beer in exchange for temp power for extension cords.

Should I keep going? :lol:

Flex bits are okay for a single hole on a lark, but boy oh boy can there be a can of worms if you don't know what's in the ceiling.

 

[svh19044]

Out of thousands of holes, I have yet to hit any pipes, mechanical, or other wires. Or for that matter, anything other than wood and insulation.

And don't other electricians use cameras that you stick in the holes? My camera, with the extensions, goes 9'. I suggest to every electrician that its a necessary tool and personally recommend the inexpensive Milwaukee (m12) camera. It's been a savior to see plumbing in some of those bays, and also great for fishing.

You can keep going all you want though and continue to knock holes everywhere. Around here, those "types" are called bad names and usually stick to new construction anyway (not that there is anything wrong with that, just that they do it for a reason).

5(a). Drill through sewer drain pipe in next bay over.
5(b). Call plumber.
5(c). Continue drilling through floor joists and nail NM cable in the next bay.
5(d). Convince homeowner to install can light under flying splices above can to repair damaged NM.
5(e). Continue drilling from new can hole, drill hole through supply lines to upstairs sink.
5(f). Shut off main water lines in the house. Call plumber asking for an updated time of arrival. Call drywaller to repair damaged drywall from water line leaks.
5(g). Continue drilling through floor joists, nail SE-R from service to main panel.
5(h). Offer the neighbor beer in exchange for temp power for extension cords.

Should I keep going? :lol:

Flex bits are okay for a single hole on a lark, but boy oh boy can there be a can of worms if you don't know what's in the ceiling.

 

[svh19044]

svh19044, that's a great method, I've done it a few times. The only difference is that I have magnets with 8/32 threaded screws that will thread onto the end of most fishsticks, so instead of trying to hook the string I "mate the magnets" and pass along a short piece of chain attached to a drag line instead.

The only concern I have with the "hole-less" method is that drilling blindly thru joists can easily lead to cutting a cable stapled to the other side of it, or maybe even drilling thru an odd pipe run. Because of that worry, I now just make a hole under each joist so I can inspect the situation and then drill across with full vision of where I'm going. I don't mind patching small holes, I use a fast setting mud to make a solid rough patch and let the customer finish it off.

I suppose my customers are more picky with drywall work and painting. There are drywall guys that do that stuff for a living, it's what they do, not what I do. Also, if there is a hole done anywhere in a ceiling, the entire ceiling needs to be repainted. And painters make a living doing that. So long as the customer understands the added expense from the start of the project, there is no problem with that. That isn't even getting in to some of the wallpaper that costs thousands to tens of thousands of dollars that I work around, try selling a small $1000 lighting job and informing them that their new $6000 wallpaper is going to have a nice hole in it. Or even just simple faux painting can be quite pricey.

I will have to look in to the magnets for fish sticks. I've used the magnets that you can line things up on the other side of the wall, but they don't work so well through some of the thick plaster.

 

[M4gery]

5(a). Drill through sewer drain pipe in next bay over.
5(b). Call plumber.
5(c). Continue drilling through floor joists and nail NM cable in the next bay.
5(d). Convince homeowner to install can light under flying splices above can to repair damaged NM.
5(e). Continue drilling from new can hole, drill hole through supply lines to upstairs sink.
5(f). Shut off main water lines in the house. Call plumber asking for an updated time of arrival. Call drywaller to repair damaged drywall from water line leaks.
5(g). Continue drilling through floor joists, nail SE-R from service to main panel.
5(h). Offer the neighbor beer in exchange for temp power for extension cords.

Should I keep going? :lol:

Flex bits are okay for a single hole on a lark, but boy oh boy can there be a can of worms if you don't know what's in the ceiling.

Don't worry, he drilled thousands of holes and never hit anything, which apparently must mean that he will never hit anything in the future. With his attitude explaining the "type" of person I am to make holes where necessary, I see no reason to even respond to him any further, for it would simply make more work for you to clean up.

 

[svh19044]

Don't worry, he drilled thousands of holes and never hit anything, which apparently must mean that he will never hit anything in the future. With his attitude explaining the "type" of person I am to make holes where necessary, I see no reason to even respond to him any further, for it would simply make more work for you to clean up.

It is quite possible I will hit something at some point, the same odds as using a drill or saw to cut in a box. Or drilling a hole up from the basements.

 

[Hv&Lv]

I suppose my customers are more picky with drywall work and painting. There are drywall guys that do that stuff for a living, it's what they do, not what I do. Also, if there is a hole done anywhere in a ceiling, the entire ceiling needs to be repainted. And painters make a living doing that. So long as the customer understands the added expense from the start of the project, there is no problem with that. That isn't even getting in to some of the wallpaper that costs thousands to tens of thousands of dollars that I work around, try selling a small $1000 lighting job and informing them that their new $6000 wallpaper is going to have a nice hole in it. Or even just simple faux painting can be quite pricey.

Also, I will have to look in to the magnets for fish sticks. I've used the magnets that you can line things up on the other side of the wall, but they don't work so well through some of the thick plaster.

I can see drilling through a couple of joists like you described, depending on the situation. I can't see drilling through 10 joists and taking the chance on getting lucky that many times. I took up the underlayment to secure the box and get around the steel beam running through the center.(the steel beam was the main reason):thumbsup:
That was a one time(so far) deal, most are much easier.

 

[svh19044]

I can see drilling through a couple of joists like you described, depending on the situation. I can't see drilling through 10 joists and taking the chance on getting lucky that many times. I took up the underlayment to secure the box and get around the steel beam running through the center.(the steel beam was the main reason):thumbsup:
That was a one time(so far) deal, most are much easier.

A steel beam would be an obvious exception to drill through with my woods bits. :rant: You won't normally have to drill through 10 joists though (that's over 13' to center of room, we are talking more like 4 or 5 at absolute most for an average room), lots of times there are open trusses around here as well so no drilling is necessary.

The easiest part is if you get to decide roughly where the switch is going, and put it on a wall that runs in line with the ceiling joists so you either don't have to drill through any at all, or only have to drill over a bay or two.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

If you are lucky you can use a flex bit from the switch box but that may not be in the bay where you want the ceiling fan.

1) You could go in the basement or crawl space and drill a hole thru the plate (1" Hole) and then add extensions till you reach the top plate

2) After you dill thru the top plate- of course this wall should be perpendicular to the ceiling joists-- cut your hole for the fan.

3) Now the hard part-- get a glow rod with a hook and push up from the basement or crawl into the top plate hole to the ceiling cavity

4) Now fish from the fan hole to the glow rod thru open joist.

I did an entire large living room with 6 recessed cans and had no holes and nothing was in the ceiling previously. After cutting holes for the cans your can drill from both directions thru the stud spaces. A bit tricky but doable.

 

[M4gery]

Dennis, that's a good idea drilling straight up fron the basement with an extension instead of trying to bend the bit into the switchbox hole and do it from there.

 

[Fulthrotl]

I know that there are many different methods of fishing wire and I am always interested in hearing how other electricians do it. In this instance I am curious how you get a cable from the wall into the ceiling when you have no access from above. For example, you need to instal a fan, chandelier, or set of high hats in the ceiling of a room on the first floor of a 2-story house. You run a feed up into a switchbox in the wall from the basement, now you have to go from the switchbox in the wall up into the ceiling.

I've seen various ways, everything from cutting a huge hole in the wall big enough to fit an entire drill as well as a hole in the ceiling big enough to get your whole arm in- to notching the sheetrock out and running the romex against the side of the top plate and then mudding right over it.

So how do you do this?

well, around here, most everything is slab on grade.... so your options are limited.
regardless of cameras, snoodle sticks, jack chain, stud detectors, acts of a benevolent
deity, and sacrificing a chicken on the hood of your service vehicle, you probably are
gonna have to cut some holes.

i first explain to the customer the exact nature of the problem, and what must
be done to solve it, and that i will leave the walls closed up when i'm done, and
i can recommend an excellent drywall taper i've know for most of my life.

if it's can lights, sometimes a couple extra can lights can eliminate patches in
the ceiling.... i also make better money filling holes in the ceiling with light bulbs
instead of cookies... and the cost of two can lights can be less than patching
and painting a ceiling.

once it's obvious it's not going to be a markless install, i use a holesaw the same
as if i was going to cut a can light in. it's easy to replace the cookie with a 1 x 3
lath a foot long for backing, you can put the same cookie back in, and orient
it to match, and 20 minute hot mud makes the ugly go away. use a razor knife
to clean up the paper fuzz on the edge of the hole, and a good vacuum to leave
it as clean as you found it.

i was going one across an interior partition wall, to feed a switch off a plug,
using a diversibit, and all was going well, and i just had a funny feeling....
i'd gone thru 3 studs, and was about to go for four, and stopped and found
the end of the bit with a good stud locator that can pick up metal, and
opened the wall... the fourth stud had a 3/4" copper water line in it, in the
middle of the house, going down to feed a manifold at the bottom of the bay....
i'd a killed it for sure.

i've also seen where flexie bits have wrapped up 3 or four pieces of romex in
an ugly ball.

i've got a ridgid camera, that will work with up to four 6' extensions, so it's good
for 25 feet.

the tools i've found most useful for snoodling things where they don't want to be
snoodled are.....

cheapo stud finder. i have an old zircon i swear by. $15

milwualkee godzilla stud finder. $400

jack chain.

magnet roller, and magnets to pull string down walls. $70

couple strong magnets for finding drywall nails and screws for locating studs $10
6" cookie cutter with dust catcher. $80

fein tool with cheap cutters, not the expensive fein blades. $500 with some blades

ridgid see snake, with two six foot extensions, about $1k with extensions

festool T-18 battery drill with the smallest 90 degree chuck you'll ever see,
and the most powerful battery drill. $625

festool cleantek lead and asbestos rated shop vac, about $500

a lucky rabbits foot. $priceless.

and to the guy who has never hit anything, my experience was that after spending
4 months fixing stub ups in a post tensioned hotel... 600 hours of nothing but
repairing and chipping around post tension cables with a hilti te 52, i mentioned to
my foreman at lunch that if i was going to break one of those cables, i'd a done it
by now, didn't he think?

about 20 minutes after lunch, i broke my first, and only post tension cable in 33 years
of work.

pride goeth before the fall, and not very far before, in my experience. good luck.

i've i've got $6k worth of wallpaper, i go get wireless piezo powered stuff. they can afford it.

 

[220/221]

On a small job, the most efficient way is to cut a 1" wide L notch in the wall/ceiling and patch it with 15 minute mud (which dries in 3 minutes when mixed dry).

Of course, you'd have to stick a skinny nail plate in the patch to stay legal....... in case someone tries to hang a picture up there. :roll:

On a bigger job with lots of drywall repair, you might as well just take out a big piece for easy access. Remember, a 12" hole isn't any harder to patch than a 4" hole.

 

[Sierrasparky]

Fulthrotl,

did you get hurt when the post tension cable failed.

I saw a guy get hit in the face with the demo hammer and several stitches. The demo hammer was trashed as it bent the shaft.hmy:

 

[kwired]

On a small job, the most efficient way is to cut a 1" wide L notch in the wall/ceiling and patch it with 15 minute mud (which dries in 3 minutes when mixed dry).

You still have to match texture/paint etc. or your patch will be about as noticeable as a box with a blank cover on it. You don't have any guarantee that your patch will not crack or break out some time later, but by then you are somewhat forgotten about and will not necessarily be blamed right?