Well pump tripping breaker

[powerplay]

I assumed it was the capacitor but without a proper meter, I used the ohms setting to see if it charged and went open after being charged. I was told the ohm setting was inaccurate way of detrmining the capacitors effectivness. The franklin motor starter had a 45mfd capacitor and a 230mfd capacitor for start and run. I took off the leads to the motor and read with the ohm meter between white and black 2ohms, the other two connections had readings that increased and went off.....is it possible the well motor had a capacitor and ran off the above ground starter with capacitors? ...Please help me troubleshoot a well pump tripping the breaker! ..THanks!

 

[socalelect]

need a little more info on it if you have it
what is it doing , does it run for a while then trip the cb or does it trip the cb as soon as you reset it
how many wires go down the "hole" ?
pump horsepower ?
what about the overload on the bottom of the cap box ?
do you have a "pumpsaver" ?
voltage ?
in my exp with well pumps if they have a above ground box and have 4 wires going down the hole , your start and run caps are in the box

i just replaced my deep well pump (400 feet) the overload on the bottom of the cap box was tripping out once or twice a week
turned out the problem was sand , it had got in the pump and wore on the plastic impeller rings and the whole stack had shrunk in lenght and created alot of extra drag that overloaded the motor

usually the caps are fairly hardy in the franklin stuff , they worst ive seen with them is they start to leak and grow some nasty stuff on the terminal
i have also replaced pressure switches that had somehow shorted out one way or another

what model is the control box ?
usually when its a motor problem the overload will catch it , most times i have seen them trip a breaker is was caused by some sort of short to ground in the wiring .
im not real familar with a megger but i would assume you could use one to check the wiring down the hole and rule out the wiring , ive seen some installed by a lazy pump man that didnt tape the wire to the pipe well and it jumped around and got beat up

 

[hillbilly1]

I assumed it was the capacitor but without a proper meter, I used the ohms setting to see if it charged and went open after being charged. I was told the ohm setting was inaccurate way of detrmining the capacitors effectivness. The franklin motor starter had a 45mfd capacitor and a 230mfd capacitor for start and run. I took off the leads to the motor and read with the ohm meter between white and black 2ohms, the other two connections had readings that increased and went off.....is it possible the well motor had a capacitor and ran off the above ground starter with capacitors? ...Please help me troubleshoot a well pump tripping the breaker! ..THanks!

If you have four wires going into the well, one of them is a equipment ground, the most common color of pump wires is black, red and yellow. Have not seen white, or did they use two pieces of UF cable?

 

[ptonsparky]

Try here: http://www.franklin-electric.com/media/documents/M1311_60_Hz_AIM_Catalog.pdf A good place to start.

Gould and others may have similar references.

A Basic analog meter is used to check the windings and capacitors. A megger is also good idea but you do not need to spend a fortune on it.

 

[powerplay]

The franklin box 2823028310 had some buzzing noise from the contacts I presume, and then the breaker tripped shortly after. there are 3 wires and the bare copper in the cable, the motor controller is rated 3hp at 230volt, and there are 2 red O/L buttons on the bottom of the box. I am heading to the Franklin site to check out the notes...thanks for all the feedback!

 

[socalelect]

http://www.franklin-electric.com/media/documents/M1311_60_Hz_AIM_Catalog.pdf

really good info on trouble shooting , it goes as far as to give you what your ohmeter readings should be

everything you need to find the problem is in there

 

[kwired]

From my experiences and what you describe as having there, there is a potential relay in that control box that opens the circuit to the start capacitor after the motor has reached enough speed to bring the voltage to a level high enough across the potential relay to operate it. The potential relay has likely failed or welded the contacts and the start capacitor is remaining in the circuit longer than needed and causing a large current draw that eventually trips the breaker.

The pump motor needs the high value start capacitor to develop enough torque to start it but only needs the lower value run capacitor while at speed to help maintain proper torque.

 

[hillbilly1]

The relay is activated by the run current, as the motor reaches run speed, current actually drops, which causes the relay to drop out, disconnecting the start winding. If the motor is locked up, the start capacitor, or the start winding is bad, this relay will stay engaged. Or as Kwired has suggested, the contacts are welded keeping the start winding energized.

 

[kwired]

The relay is activated by the run current, as the motor reaches run speed, current actually drops, which causes the relay to drop out, disconnecting the start winding. If the motor is locked up, the start capacitor, or the start winding is bad, this relay will stay engaged. Or as Kwired has suggested, the contacts are welded keeping the start winding energized.

The relay does not monitor current it monitors voltage across the aux winding (start winding) of the motor.

You will see in the image that the relay coil is connected parallel to the aux winding. They are usually designed with precise pull in and drop out levels in order to make them operate when needed.

 

[Buck Parrish]

In case any body is interested on a submersible pump.
The latest I have encountered, it was the wire had rubbed a bare spot in the wire between the ground level and the pump somewhere.
The movement of the pipe will some times cause this scenario.
I take the wires off right before it enters the pipe. If the breaker holds I will tell them to call the pump man. Then later if I see him at Sunday dinner he ussually tells me what the problem was.
BTW the new submersibles have every thing built in.

 

[hillbilly1]

The relay does not monitor current it monitors voltage across the aux winding (start winding) of the motor.

You will see in the image that the relay coil is connected parallel to the aux winding. They are usually designed with precise pull in and drop out levels in order to make them operate when needed.

The ones I have seen have a heavy gauge coil that is in series with the run winding, the current moves the plunger to close the contacts. there must be different two styles of these relays depending on the manufacture. These are also used on washing machine motors that do not have the centrifugal contacts to control the start winding.

 

[kwired]

In case any body is interested on a submersible pump.
The latest I have encountered, it was the wire had rubbed a bare spot in the wire between the ground level and the pump somewhere.
The movement of the pipe will some times cause this scenario.
I take the wires off right before it enters the pipe. If the breaker holds I will tell them to call the pump man. Then later if I see him at Sunday dinner he ussually tells me what the problem was.
BTW the new submersibles have every thing built in.

Don't be so sure everything is built in on new submersibles. There has been a variety of 2 wire and 3 wire motors for a long time. I have not seen anything over 1 HP that is only a two wire motor. A control unit with capacitor and potential relay is necessary or a constant pressure variable speed drive can also be used. I don't think there is such a thing for two wire motors.

 

[socalelect]

if a 2 wire with everything in the motor does exist , i sure do NOT want one . i dont want to drag 400 feet of pipe and cable up just to replace a bad cap . i havent had a problem with anything down the hole except when the sand ate the pump because the sand shroud wasnt long enough

 

[kwired]

if a 2 wire with everything in the motor does exist , i sure do NOT want one . i dont want to drag 400 feet of pipe and cable up just to replace a bad cap . i havent had a problem with anything down the hole except when the sand ate the pump because the sand shroud wasnt long enough

Biggest problem I see down at pump is splines on shaft to pump coupling eventually get stripped from too many starts. Variable speed controllers eliminate this problem as they 'soft start' the motor.