I don't know what this means never did maybe I never will

[david]

230.40 Number of Service-Entrance Conductor Sets.
Exception No. 2: Where two to six service disconnecting means in separate enclosures are grouped at one location , one set of service-entrance conductors shall be permitted to supply each or several such service equipment enclosures.

?and supply separate loads from one service drop or lateral?

I understand this part but when you add this sentence to qualify the rule I?m lost as to what that means. This exception is commonly used to allow double lugging a meter and installing two distribution panels side by side to supply the same dwelling or building. Most commonly done with 400 amp services supplying two 200 amp distribution panels.


My gut feeling on this was that it really was written to allow separate metering of the water heater load on a different rate. Or in commercial a standard rate and a heating load rate.

 

[Hv&Lv]

230.40 Number of Service-Entrance Conductor Sets.
Exception No. 2: Where two to six service disconnecting means in separate enclosures are grouped at one location , one set of service-entrance conductors shall be permitted to supply each or several such service equipment enclosures.

?and supply separate loads from one service drop or lateral?

I understand this part but when you add this sentence to qualify the rule I?m lost as to what that means. This exception is commonly used to allow double lugging a meter and installing two distribution panels side by side to supply the same dwelling or building. Most commonly done with 400 amp services supplying two 200 amp distribution panels.


My gut feeling on this was that it really was written to allow separate metering of the water heater load on a different rate. Or in commercial a standard rate and a heating load rate.

Wouldn't that be for a 2 gang through a 6 gang meter base?

 

[david]

Wouldn't that be for a 2 gang through a 6 gang meter base?

yes that would make sence too.
so what exception would we use to allow seperate service entrances from a single meter to two seperate panels to a single dwelling

 

[hurk27]

While every state or local jurisdiction might interpret it different, I believe with the wording in 230.2 addressing 230.40 Exception(2) it can allow us to have more options to having groups of six means of disconnects located in different locations where in the case of multiple occupancy is involved, many areas will still require a fire wall between each group of disconnects but it can be still allowed from one set of service conductors as stated in the exception.

See this thread as it was a recent discussion:
http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=140402&p=1342800&highlight=#post1342800

 

[david]

While every state or local jurisdiction might interpret it different, I believe with the wording in 230.2 addressing 230.40 Exception(2) it can allow us to have more options to having groups of six means of disconnects located in different locations where in the case of multiple occupancy is involved, many areas will still require a fire wall between each group of disconnects but it can be still allowed from one set of service conductors as stated in the exception.

See this thread as it was a recent discussion:
http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=140402&p=1342800&highlight=#post1342800

I have no problem connecting the dots if six disconnects are grouped and supplied by six laterals the code is clear that this is to be considered one service.

But when you talk about service entrances again I have no problem with exception two without the sentence ?and supply separate loads from one service drop or lateral?. How do you define separate loads. This should not be left to make us guess as to its meaning. Without that sentence I can group six separate service enclosures at one location. Now a d the sentence that qualifies it that it has to be separate loads. What does that mean exactly.

 

[hurk27]

Also see article 100 for the definition of service entrance conductors, and figure 230.1 for what is considered a service, you can have multiple SEC's but one service drop or one lateral to a building is considered one service.

 

[Hv&Lv]

I have no problem connecting the dots if six disconnects are grouped and supplied by six laterals the code is clear that this is to be considered one service.

But when you talk about service entrances again I have no problem with exception two without the sentence “and supply separate loads from one service drop or lateral”. How do you define separate loads. This should not be left to make us guess as to its meaning. Without that sentence I can group six separate service enclosures at one location. Now a d the sentence that qualifies it that it has to be separate loads. What does that mean exactly.

I was refering to a 2-6 gang meter base set being fed from ONE overhead or underground service. Maybe I am missing the point.

 

[hurk27]

I have no problem connecting the dots if six disconnects are grouped and supplied by six laterals the code is clear that this is to be considered one service.

But when you talk about service entrances again I have no problem with exception two without the sentence “and supply separate loads from one service drop or lateral”. How do you define separate loads. This should not be left to make us guess as to its meaning. Without that sentence I can group six separate service enclosures at one location. Now a d the sentence that qualifies it that it has to be separate loads. What does that mean exactly.

230.40 Number of Service-Entrance Conductor Sets.
Exception No. 2: Where two to six service disconnecting means in separate enclosures are grouped at one location , one set of service-entrance conductors shall be permitted to supply each or several such service equipment enclosures.

It does not say laterals it says one set of SEC's can supply each group of six disconnects or several groups of six disconnects, as it was explained to me at our western sectional IAEI meeting.

For the wording in 230.2 that states:

For the purpose of 230.40, Exception
No. 2 only, underground sets of conductors, 1/0 AWG and
larger, running to the same location and connected together at
their supply end but not connected together at their load end
shall be considered to be supplying one service.

For us to be allowed multiple sets of laterals to be run to a building they have to be 1/0 or larger, and connected together at the supply end but not the load end, so basically its saying it has to come from the same transformer.

 

[david]

We are getting off track here my question only has to do with service entrance conductors exception # 2

What does this sentence mean ?and supply separate loads? it qualifies the whole exception with out that sentence I can bring in two service entrance conductors to two separate service enclosures as long as they are grouped in the same location. But the exception says they have to supply separate loads. What does that mean. My gut feeling is that that w originally written to allow separate service entrances to say a hot water tank in addition to the service entrance for the lighting and appliance loads.

 

[Smart $]

...What does this sentence mean ?and supply separate loads? it qualifies the whole exception with out that sentence I can bring in two service entrance conductors to two separate service enclosures as long as they are grouped in the same location. But the exception says they have to supply separate loads. What does that mean. My gut feeling is that that w originally written to allow separate service entrances to say a hot water tank in addition to the service entrance for the lighting and appliance loads.

Well, why it was written is irrelevant. I take it to mean no two service disconnects can supply the same utilization equipment. For example, some forced-air electric furnaces require two circuits. Those circuits cannot be supplied through two service disconnects. Another is two ballast luminaires... both ballasts must be supplied by only one service.

 

[david]

Well, why it was written is irrelevant. I take it to mean no two service disconnects can supply the same utilization equipment. For example, some forced-air electric furnaces require two circuits. Those circuits cannot be supplied through two service disconnects. Another is two ballast luminaires... both ballasts must be supplied by only one service.

Thanks,
Hum I will have to think about that as it applies to exception #(2) I do not disagree with content of what your saying I am just not sure how you derive that from the exception

 

[david]

Let me try this a different way
230.40 Number of Service-Entrance Conductor Sets.
Each service drop or lateral shall supply only one set of service-entrance conductors.

I have a service drop feeding a single meter enclosure I run one service entrance conductor into a 200 amp service enclosure.
I later decide to add a second 200 amp service enclosure so I group it beside the first. Is this second service enclosure a separate load or am I just calling it a separate load so I can apply exception #2

What if anything in the code defines what a separate load is so this exception can be correctly applied to service entrance conductors.

 

[david]

Let me try this a different way
230.40 Number of Service-Entrance Conductor Sets.
Each service drop or lateral shall supply only one set of service-entrance conductors.

I have a service drop feeding a single meter enclosure I run one service entrance conductor into a 200 amp service enclosure.
I later decide to add a second 200 amp service enclosure so I group it beside the first. Is this second service enclosure a separate load or am I just calling it a separate load so I can apply exception #2

What if anything in the code defines what a separate load is so this exception can be correctly applied to service entrance conductors.

If this is not a separate load and I still want a separate 200 amp service panel , I would have to run a single service entrance set and tap it and run a tap to the second service enclosure

 

[Hv&Lv]

Let me try this a different way
230.40 Number of Service-Entrance Conductor Sets.
Each service drop or lateral shall supply only one set of service-entrance conductors.

I have a service drop feeding a single meter enclosure I run one service entrance conductor into a 200 amp service enclosure.
I later decide to add a second 200 amp service enclosure so I group it beside the first. Is this second service enclosure a separate load or am I just calling it a separate load so I can apply exception #2

What if anything in the code defines what a separate load is so this exception can be correctly applied to service entrance conductors.

I believe for this you would be under exception 3, although 230.23 would come into play IMO. I believe this would be called a second load but in the instance you describe, I think you would need to install a 400 amp service.
I misunderstood in my first post. For exception 2, would that not be for subpanel disconnects? (230.71)?

 

[Smart $]

Let me try this a different way
230.40 Number of Service-Entrance Conductor Sets.
Each service drop or lateral shall supply only one set of service-entrance conductors.

I have a service drop feeding a single meter enclosure I run one service entrance conductor into a 200 amp service enclosure.
I later decide to add a second 200 amp service enclosure so I group it beside the first. Is this second service enclosure a separate load or am I just calling it a separate load so I can apply exception #2

What if anything in the code defines what a separate load is so this exception can be correctly applied to service entrance conductors.

If this is not a separate load and I still want a separate 200 amp service panel , I would have to run a single service entrance set and tap it and run a tap to the second service enclosure

My perspective is, there is no difference in the two scenarios you describe, under typical conditions. The service drop typically ends at the overhead connection. The conductors run down from there to the meter are the SEC. If you supply two service disconnecting means off the meter, you are technically splicing or tapping the SEC.

To have a separate set of SEC (under any of the exceptions), they would have to start at the overhead connection (or the end of a service lateral if underground).

 

[hurk27]

My perspective is, there is no difference in the two scenarios you describe, under typical conditions. The service drop typically ends at the overhead connection. The conductors run down from there to the meter are the SEC. If you supply two service disconnecting means off the meter, you are technically splicing or tapping the SEC.

To have a separate set of SEC (under any of the exceptions), they would have to start at the overhead connection (or the end of a service lateral if underground).

I don't agree with the above in red as we use the 230.40 exception(3) all the time when we use a double lug meter base and run to an out building from these extra lugs, the code does not say anything about a tap or that we have to only connect at the weather head.

Remember a meter base in nothing more then a wide spot in the SEC's, see figure 230.1 and you will see that the only reference to the meter is on the underground side above the line and you still have SEC's below the line, we tap SEC's all the time when we troff above a set of meters to connect each meter.

As to the OP, look at 230.40 Exception(5) then look at 230.82(2) which is the codes that we followed to allow the extra pro-rated meter for electric heat and hot water heaters, we still install these on many motels with room AC/heat units.

With that said, I think I have got my prior explanation mixed up with 230.40 Exception(1) as that one is the one that allows multiple groups of six disconnects, and you are right exception (2) allows us to run more then one set of SEC's to up to six service enclosures, and your right this is the exception that allows us to split a 400 amp service from a double lug meter to two 200 amp main breaker panels as long as they meet the grouping requirements.

Exception (3) allows me to run from a double lug meter lets say a 320 meter out to a garage with SEC's to a main breaker panel with only 3 conductors treating the main breaker panel in the garage as service equipment which you have to do anyways.

 

[hurk27]

I guess to sum it up, 230.40 Exception(2) is what allows us to feed multiple main breaker panels or disconnects from one service drop or laterals, but using this they still have to be grouped, Exception (1) can allow each group of 6 disconnects to be separated and some locals will require fire walls between each set of grouped disconnects.

so meters are not service equipment, the first means of disconnect enclosure is the service equipment, after this is the feeders or branch circuits, ahead of this is the service entrance conductors and the service point.

so the service equipment can be a meter with a main, ATS with a main, a disconnect with a main, or a panel with a main, all depends upon the design of the service you are installing.

 

[david]

[QUOTEAs to the OP, look at then look at 230.82(2) which is the codes that we followed to allow the extra pro-rated meter for electric heat and hot water heaters, we still install these on many motels with room AC/heat units. .[/QUOTE]

Yes 230.82 would allow a meter or time clock line side of a service dissconnect.

Take my fathers house he still has the service entrance going through a time clock separate meter and 30 amp disconnect for his hot water
This all originates at the service drop. Along side that he has a second service entrance a meter to a second 100 amp panel grouped next to his 30 amp service disconnect for the hot water.

This is a clear picture of two service entrances supplying separate loads. I am uncertain what defines a separate load. If we could call any separate panel a separate load their would not be a need for that sentence in the exception.

Is their any need for that sentence if their is what distinguishes a separate load. Is it a separate load just because I feel like calling it that.

 

[hurk27]

After think some more, I can see where the wording in 230.2 pointing to this exception will give us some flexibility for large services, lets say we want to install a 1200 amp service and we have pad mounted transformer with CT metering, using the wording in 230.2 and 230.40 Exception(2) we can run separate 3/0 laterals to 6 200 amp main breaker panels and have many more breaker spaces and avoid dealing with parallel conductors, I have done this before using these two articles.

 

[hurk27]

which is the codes that we followed to allow the extra pro-rated meter for electric heat and hot water heaters, we still install these on many motels with room AC/heat units.

Yes 230.82 would allow a meter or time clock line side of a service disconnect.

Take my fathers house he still has the service entrance going through a time clock separate meter and 30 amp disconnect for his hot water
This all originates at the service drop. Along side that he has a second service entrance a meter to a second 100 amp panel grouped next to his 30 amp service disconnect for the hot water.

This is a clear picture of two service entrances supplying separate loads. I am uncertain what defines a separate load. If we could call any separate panel a separate load their would not be a need for that sentence in the exception.

Is their any need for that sentence if their is what distinguishes a separate load. Is it a separate load just because I feel like calling it that.

Separate load is opposite of same load, so to me any panel that is feeding other loads is a separate load.

I think it was put in there to make sure your not feeding the same load that was allowed back in the split buss panel days, or to distinguish it from a parallel run to the same panel/load, yes it seem kind of dumb but then in some cases the NEC has been dumbed down a bit.