harm in the sound system

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I insell 120v outlet for a sound system,from a subpanel and the harm is the system.Iwant to know what i can do to get the harm out.the sound system have a outlet from another subpanel and the system dont harm.can i put two ground rods at the subpanel and bond the neutral bar then the ground bar. need help thank you.
 

charlie b

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I fear that I do not understand your question. What do you mean by "harm"? Are you talking about a humming noise? Are you talking about harmonics?

Regarding bonding the neutral and ground in a subpanel, that is absolutely not allowed. I don't know enough about sound systems to answer your question, but I am certain that ground rods are not the answer.
 

infinity

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I believe that he's trying to eliminate hum. Sorry to say but if you're looking to install ground rods to solve the problem you're in trouble.
 

K8MHZ

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Michigan. It's a beautiful peninsula, I've looked
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Electrician
I believe that he's trying to eliminate hum. Sorry to say but if you're looking to install ground rods to solve the problem you're in trouble.

I am pretty sure he meant hum, too.

I used to help local bands set up and occasionally we would get to some dive where the hot and neutral were reversed and it, nearly without fail, would cause a 60hz hum in the amps and sound system.

I have also fixed amps that had a hum by putting the plug back on the cord correctly.

Besides a hum, if the hot and neutral are switched it can cause the mikes and stands to become energized and bite the performers.
 

brian john

Senior Member
Location
Leesburg, VA
Typically hum, is a result of AC current on the grounding system.

This is generally caused by a neutral that is grounded downstream from the main service bond.

Disconnect the power, and check for continuity (preferably with a megger) between the neutral and ground. You will need to isolate the neutrals in the panels, to perform this test.
 

hurk27

Senior Member
Brian is on spot, over the years I have done many sound systems even spending 6 months through a seminar at Electro-Voice at the Buchanan, Michigan plant to get my contractor certification to do installs for them, Most 60hz hums in a sound system can be traced back to grounded neutral or bonded neutral bus's in sub panels which is a common code violation, many times it's not even the circuits that are being used as a grounded neutral from even a different circuit will cause this, there are a couple methods for eliminating this hum and tracing down a bonded neutral can be the more expensive choice but the best for safety and for a code compliant install.
But like with some Church's and small establishments this can be over bearing for a customer to bare this much cost as it is very time involved and the cost meter can run up quit a bit.

I would say the first thing is to check if the subpanel has the neutral bar bonded to the ground, this is a code violation and should be addressed, always make sure you have a good neutral to this subpanel and a separate EGC (which can be metallic conduit) not service entrance cable as I have seen many times, if this checks out ok then you will have to turn off breakers one by one until you remove the hum leaving the last two circuits that feed the sound equipment on, if this doesn't remove the hum then I ask if this sub panel is fed from a different service as you might have a situation that the only way is to install a 1 to 1 isolation transformer in your audio cable from the sound board to the amps, at least one or two per Amp is needed, these can be purchased at most pro sound shops and many guitar shops, you can get them in 1/4" 600 ohm, or 1k ohm XLR in many configurations, I used to have a collection of them when I was doing sound, as they were a show saver many times over, the worst method is using a gate or a notch filter to take the 60hz out, as this will color the sound and make it sound like something is missing, a gate can sound awful cutting in and out when you have a soft voiced person at the mic.

the other things that can cause problems is what is DI'ed into the board or sound snake, DI'ing some guitar amps and effect racks can cause problem if one has a mis wired cord, older tube amps used one side of the power cord as a reference and usually had a switch to change which wire was referenced, this can cause problems, with DI'ing these into a PA system, so if you have this type of system then have them remove all the DI'ed equipment and hook in one at a time till you find the one that is causing the problem.

(DI-ing or DI-ed is slang for "Direct Input" or directly connecting the low level output of a guitar amp or other sound device to the main sound board)

These kinds of problems are not for the average electrician as it can require skills of knowing how the sound system all ties in, but parallel neutral current on the grounding is, and should be eliminated if possible, and is a very common source for this hum.

The reason parallel neutral current on grounding is a problem, is when we have amps on one circuit or receptacle and the sound board, or guitar amps, or other sound equipment at another location plugged into another circuit or receptacle any current on the grounding will also share on the shield of the connecting audio cables or sound snake, this is because current takes all paths, and even though the current on the snake will be small, 60hz is right in the audio spectrum that the amplifiers will amplify, and it does not take that much to produce a big hum in a system.

From the way you asked this question and the fact you tried using ground rods to eliminate it, kind of says you might need to pull in someone who knows how to deal with a problem like this, and watch out for sound guys as all they know is cut off the ground pin or use a adapter that removes the equipment ground connection as this is a very dangerous thing to do, isolating with a 1 to 1 transformer in the audio cables is a much better choice if you run into a brick wall with being allowed to track the problem down because of the cost.

I shouldn't really say that about sound guys as they are some sharp guys out there who did get some instruction on how to run sound systems, and I have trained some in this area also to stop them from cutting off ground pin on cords:rant:
 

Little Bill

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Tennessee NEC:2017
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Semi-Retired Electrician
From the way you asked this question and the fact you tried using ground rods to eliminate it, kind of says you might need to pull in someone who knows how to deal with a problem like this, and watch out for sound guys as all they know is cut off the ground pin or use a adapter that removes the equipment ground connection as this is a very dangerous thing to do, isolating with a 1 to 1 transformer in the audio cables is a much better choice if you run into a brick wall with being allowed to track the problem down because of the cost.

I shouldn't really say that about sound guys as they are some sharp guys out there who did get some instruction on how to run sound systems, and I have trained some in this area also to stop them from cutting off ground pin on cords:rant:

Hurk, I help install and operate sound systems at our Church and everything you describe sounds right. I think most of the hums encountered are from ground loops.
As far as removing the ground pin, you are correct. However, there are direct boxes with a ground lift built in them. They are listed to be a safe alternative for removing ground loop hums in equipment. A direct box is used in connecting some guitars or other equipment that may only have 1/4" connectors and you need XLR connectors to connect to a sound system. I was told the ground lift on the boxes didn't remove the ground, only isolating it to help with ground loop hums. Sometimes the hum isn't from a ground loop and using the ground lift has no affect on it.
 

hurk27

Senior Member
Hurk, I help install and operate sound systems at our Church and everything you describe sounds right. I think most of the hums encountered are from ground loops.
As far as removing the ground pin, you are correct. However, there are direct boxes with a ground lift built in them. They are listed to be a safe alternative for removing ground loop hums in equipment. A direct box is used in connecting some guitars or other equipment that may only have 1/4" connectors and you need XLR connectors to connect to a sound system. I was told the ground lift on the boxes didn't remove the ground, only isolating it to help with ground loop hums. Sometimes the hum isn't from a ground loop and using the ground lift has no affect on it.

A DI box or snake is not really lifting the ground, but has built-in 1 to 1 transformers to isolate the shields between the stage breakout box and sound board or amps, about 15 years ago I tried getting Switch Craft to incorporate this into their snakes and DI box's that would have helped many sound men, but they wrote me back and said it would be too costly, well for one I'm glad to here some one took this initiative as maybe it will save someone from being electrocuted from a non grounded piece of equipment, I agree not all hums are ground loops, and can be cause by a faulty power supply in a piece of sound equipment, not too uncommon at all, but it still takes someone with the right knowledge to trouble shoot these problems and it is kind of out of the realm of the average electrician's knowledge, even tracking down grounded neutrals can be a job that most don't even attempt, as it is very frustrating work that many owners of these small places are not willing to pay for, so knowing that there is alternative methods that can be safe such as using 1 to 1 shield isolating transformers in the audio lines can help bring the cost down and provide a safe method to eliminate the hum problem in some cases, other cases such as defective equipment will have to be dealt on a case by case bases removing each one till the hum is eliminated, then deal with the defective equipment as needed.

True the grounded neutral bonds should be repaired, but when someone else is paying the bill, you might not always have that option, and removing or isolating the EGC is not an option that anyone should ever take.
 
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humming in sound system

humming in sound system

thank for inform) i didn't bond the ground rods to the panel.I were asking a question.like i had say early was i install new outlet for the sound system,and have a humming sound when the sound system is plug in the outlet.there another outlet in the same room from panel b that the system don't hum when plug in. the power come from the same main panel outdoor.this panel is c with the hum in the new outlets.when i plug my ideal sure test circuit analyzer in the outlets,they show wired correct.what i trying to find out is how to get the hum out the system. they put new wires for the mikes,guitar,drum,and keyboard.
 
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