Sign Circuit

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Tebow

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For the purpsoe of service demand, a sign circuit shall be computed at 1500 va. In section 220.14(f) the answer to me is 1200 va. What am I doing wrong?

The service demand for a sign circuit is required to be calculated at a minimum 1200 watts. The answer given is in 220.12(f). I do not see that in there? Please help.
 

charlie b

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Location
Lockport, IL
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Retired Electrical Engineer
For the purpose of service demand, a sign circuit shall be computed at 1500 va.
Where did you get that from?
The service demand for a sign circuit is required to be calculated at a minimum 1200 watts. The answer given is in 220.12(f). I do not see that in there?
I see it there.
220(F) Sign and Outline Lighting. Sign and outline lighting outlets shall be calculated at a minimum of 1200 volt-amperes for each required branch circuit specified in 600.5(A)
 

charlie b

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Lockport, IL
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Are you, by chance, using an edition of the NEC that is from 2002 or earlier? Article 220.14(F) was introduced in the 2005 edition.
 

charlie b

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Location
Lockport, IL
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Retired Electrical Engineer
The answer I was given is 1500va. Why is 1500va correct?
The answer you were given? What answer? What was the question? Was this on a test or homework assignment or something along those lines? Perhaps the instructor, or the author of the test question, has the wrong answer. Perhaps it is a typographical error.
 

Tebow

Member
The answer you were given? What answer? What was the question? Was this on a test or homework assignment or something along those lines? Perhaps the instructor, or the author of the test question, has the wrong answer. Perhaps it is a typographical error.
This was a problem that on a practice exam, the answer key say the correct answer is 1500va.
 

texie

Senior Member
Location
Fort Collins, Colorado
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Electrician, Contractor, Inspector
Haven't actually looked it up but I think the sign circuit is 1200 VA as you say. But it is a continuous load so X125%=1500 VA.
 

charlie b

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Location
Lockport, IL
Occupation
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But it is a continuous load so X125%=1500 VA.
This is a debatable notion, indeed one that I believe has been debated on this forum before. The question is this: If the code gives you a specific minimum VA for a specific type of load, should we presume that the code authors knew it was going to be a continuous load, and therefore already added the extra 25% before they told us what number to use? In other words, was the intended load for the sign circuit actually 960 VA, but they multiplied that by 125% and gave us the 1200 VA result as the value to use? It is possible that the test question's author took the opposite point of view, and saw the 1200 as the non-continuous value, and added the extra 25% to get a final answer of 1500. To me, that sounds like the most likely explanation.

For my part, when I see a value in an NEC table, I do not apply a 125% factor for continuous loads. For example, if I design a lighting system, including selection of light fixtures and lamps, I will calculate the lighting load by putting the actual lamp loads on a panel schedule. I will apply the 125% factor in that calculatio. By contrast, if I am using 3VA per square foot as the amount of lighting load assigned to a service calculation, I will not multiply the 125% factor to that part of the calculation. I believe the fact that lights can be on more than 3 hours is already bullt into the 3VA/SF value that I pulled from the table.
 

Tebow

Member
This is a debatable notion, indeed one that I believe has been debated on this forum before. The question is this: If the code gives you a specific minimum VA for a specific type of load, should we presume that the code authors knew it was going to be a continuous load, and therefore already added the extra 25% before they told us what number to use? In other words, was the intended load for the sign circuit actually 960 VA, but they multiplied that by 125% and gave us the 1200 VA result as the value to use? It is possible that the test question's author took the opposite point of view, and saw the 1200 as the non-continuous value, and added the extra 25% to get a final answer of 1500. To me, that sounds like the most likely explanation.

For my part, when I see a value in an NEC table, I do not apply a 125% factor for continuous loads. For example, if I design a lighting system, including selection of light fixtures and lamps, I will calculate the lighting load by putting the actual lamp loads on a panel schedule. I will apply the 125% factor in that calculatio. By contrast, if I am using 3VA per square foot as the amount of lighting load assigned to a service calculation, I will not multiply the 125% factor to that part of the calculation. I believe the fact that lights can be on more than 3 hours is already bullt into the 3VA/SF value that I pulled from the table.
Thank you for taking the time to explain this with such great detail!
 

lauraj

Senior Member
Location
Portland, Oregon
I guess this would depend on the state. For testing purposes, Oregon would require the additional 125% for continuous load, so the answer would be 1500 VA.
 
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