"I Don't Know" ...

[renosteinke]

Let's not get too carried away over the pricing issue.

I've bought a number of similar type breakers (Sq D) for around $300. Another Sq D line cost me about $800. Casual internet price searches will usually produce a 'list' price - that's the source of the $1600+ figure - and list prices are often pure fantasy.

More important, it's with breakers like these that there is an enormous 'grey' market of used / "reconditioned" breakers. I have no idea what 'reconditioned' really means.

"Corporate" customers often have their own secret purchasing departments, where anonymous witches and wizards cast their spells and chant incantations. Also being on the 'contracting' side of the table, let me assure you that these corporate practices routinely result in the 'big corporation' paying a heck of a lot more than I do when I walk up to the counter of the local supply house.

In any event, the maintenance wonks are going to get to see the 'list' price. I really want to get their undivided attention.

More importantly, the info Zog sent (an informative sheet from Sq D) makes a pretty good case that no one has any business opening one of these breakers up. Period. Ever.

Other papers - you can download NEMA AB4 for free - explain testing procedures and periodic maintenance for these types of breakers. There is a notable lack of any references to opening the case, cleaning the contacts, or any other such malarky.

That's what I really needed - the documentation to support my position. One does have to be careful to recognize where "I know" becomes "I think ..."

 

[zog]

More important, it's with breakers like these that there is an enormous 'grey' market of used / "reconditioned" breakers. I have no idea what 'reconditioned' really means.

Excellent point, and 90% of the companies out there selling "reconditioned" MCCB's don't know either, some just wipe them clean and don't even own test equipment. I could go on and on but I won't, however I will say I am on the front lines of the battle against the "Grey market" with OEM's fighting alongside me. But to answer your question, this is what "reconditioned" means when it comes to MCCB's. http://www.pearl1.org/standards/Low...0/1212 LV MCCB with Solid State Trip Rev5.pdf

So basically you can see that a "reconditioned" MCCB is really a used one that has been properly inspected and most importantly fully tested, which in a way is better than new ones that are only batch tested. There is very little maintenence or repairs that are allowed per NEMA AB4 on MCCB's.

In any event, the maintenance wonks are going to get to see the 'list' price. I really want to get their undivided attention.

Point taken

 

[pfalcon]

Let's not get too carried away over the pricing issue.

I've bought a number of similar type breakers (Sq D) for around $300. Another Sq D line cost me about $800. Casual internet price searches will usually produce a 'list' price - that's the source of the $1600+ figure - and list prices are often pure fantasy.

$300 : I stock crates of the things when they go on sale
$800 : We watch the price
$1600 : (Expletives) We're waiting on that machine!
Priceless : Selling a $1600 breaker. (And extra if we get to fly it!)

 

[cowboyjwc]

The the rep explain why he does not sell parts for it? Because they are not designed to be field repairable.

It's a long story, but we were pretty sure that we couldn't fix it, but heck we were getting paid a bunch of over time to shut down the plant and pull the breaker to tell them that.:happyyes:

Now let me say this, that was in 1988 and we paid just around $1500 for that breaker and our original price quote was around $2500. So $1600 isn't really that out of line.

 

[mivey]

The the rep explain why he does not sell parts for it? Because they are not designed to be field repairable.

There are detailed steps on how to do this on DIY.com. You are just trying to keep the little man down.

 

[GearMan]

Excellent point, and 90% of the companies out there selling "reconditioned" MCCB's don't know either, some just wipe them clean and don't even own test equipment. I could go on and on but I won't, however I will say I am on the front lines of the battle against the "Grey market" with OEM's fighting alongside me.

Thanks to people like you. Continue the battle. http://www.counterfeitscankill.org/about/

 

[zog]

Thanks to people like you. Continue the battle. http://www.counterfeitscankill.org/about/

Some of us have been fighting alongside UL's anti-counterfieting group for a while now, even the OEM guys are starting to get on board after they realized not all aftermarket guys are grey market and some out there take pride in doing it right. Eaton in paticular has been very helpful with training to help identify counterfiet items in the market.

The UL guys are nuts, like Elliott Ness back in the day, they set up raids of Chineese factories, have heard some pretty cool stories from them.

 

[mivey]

The UL guys are nuts, like Elliott Ness back in the day, they set up raids of Chineese factories, have heard some pretty cool stories from them.

How does that work? Are we allowed to make raids in China? I would not think they are that concerned with quality. Doesn't the Chinese government kind of condone that type of activity in a wink-wink, nod-nod, say-no-more, say-no-more kind of way?

 

[DARUSA]

What about installing a shunt trip or an Auxiliary contact? once I had to do it ,I installed an Auxiliary contact and a shunt trip. I have to trip the breaker and In a trip position install the shunt trip kit and the auxiliary contact kit ,one in each side of the breaker.

 

[zog]

How does that work? Are we allowed to make raids in China? I would not think they are that concerned with quality. Doesn't the Chinese government kind of condone that type of activity in a wink-wink, nod-nod, say-no-more, say-no-more kind of way?

Gets all cleared through local officials, pretty cool stuff if you ask me. Don't want to derail thread but you can read more here http://www.ul.com/global/eng/pages/offerings/services/programs/anticounterfeitingoperations/

 

[kwired]

How does that work? Are we allowed to make raids in China? I would not think they are that concerned with quality. Doesn't the Chinese government kind of condone that type of activity in a wink-wink, nod-nod, say-no-more, say-no-more kind of way?

Kind of my thoughts. I can see something being done to try to stop importing the counterfeit products but to go raid a plant in another country??

Maybe we can raid the plants for labor violations and help level the playing field that is making them cheaper labor.

 

[zog]

What about installing a shunt trip or an Auxiliary contact? once I had to do it ,I installed an Auxiliary contact and a shunt trip. I have to trip the breaker and In a trip position install the shunt trip kit and the auxiliary contact kit ,one in each side of the breaker.

Those are some examples of the few field installable accesories you can install on some breakers without voiding the UL listing.

 

[G0049]

1 Good Reason

1 Good Reason

Now, I have to ask ... is there ANY reason to open up a molded case circuit breaker?

Yup. To seperate out the recycleable metal components before the rest goes into the trash can. :thumbsup:

 

[K8MHZ]

Yup. To seperate out the recycleable metal components before the rest goes into the trash can. :thumbsup:

Or to show students what is inside them.

 

[iwire]

Generally MCCB's fall under UL 489 which more or less says you can't open the case, they are not designed with maintenance or repairs in mind. ANSI equipment on the other hand is not only designed to be maintained they need to be maintained. I can send you a paper explains the differences, too large to attach (PM me).

Zog, I have had to open breakers to field install trip units in what I thought would be called MCCBs, these were Siemens breakers in the 100 to 400 amp sizes. Are they called something else?

 

[GeorgeB]

"Corporate" customers often have their own secret purchasing departments, where anonymous witches and wizards cast their spells and chant incantations. Also being on the 'contracting' side of the table, let me assure you that these corporate practices routinely result in the 'big corporation' paying a heck of a lot more than I do when I walk up to the counter of the local supply house.

Perhaps that is true with certain products. I was doing a hydraulic system for a major international company which included pressure, temperature, and flow instrumentation. In the industrial hydraulics world, we don't generally use "process" grade stuff which was specified, brand and series. We gave our customer the prices we were quoted and what we normally pay for similar functionality. They laughed, said subtract what we normally pay and they'll furnish them ... their cost was 20% of what we were quoted.

We came out ok ... an industrial pressure transducer is maybe 20 pounds vs. 2 oz for our "usual" stuff ... but extra mounting was a minimal cost. We specified SAE vs. NPT fittings, the only unusual, to the customer, request. At 5000 psi, it is not a question of if an NPT fitting will leak, rather when it will leak. Yes, even at 1/4".

 

[iwire]

"Corporate" customers often have their own secret purchasing departments, where anonymous witches and wizards cast their spells and chant incantations. Also being on the 'contracting' side of the table, let me assure you that these corporate practices routinely result in the 'big corporation' paying a heck of a lot more than I do when I walk up to the counter of the local supply house.

Strange, my experience is the opposite.

We do a lot of large national retail and those guys often provide the gear and lighting packages. They get much better pricing because they buy a dozens stores worth of equipment at once which gives them much better buying power than a local contractor.

 

[zog]

Zog, I have had to open breakers to field install trip units in what I thought would be called MCCBs, these were Siemens breakers in the 100 to 400 amp sizes. Are they called something else?

See post #32

 

[renosteinke]

Under the heading of 'truth is stranger than fiction' .....

I just came from the cabinets that I mentioned at the start of this thread. This is the first, and only, this gear has been brought to my 'official' attention.

The complaint was .... well, seems some of the wires were 'quivering.' Quivering. OK, that's an original concern.

Well, I got to put my 'other ' hat on. As luck would have it, I am also involved with the local shelter. And, as luck would have it, the 'black and white cat' that was described to me when I got there turned out to be ... yes, you guessed it ... a skunk that had found a nice place to nest.

Pepe is doing just fine. Trapped and relocated.

I'll just bet the disassembled breaker will appear later today, in pieces, having been 'discovered' to have been 'damaged by the skunk.'

 

[iwire]

See post #32

Thanks