Value Engineering

[kwired]

I don't completely agree. Things that are VE'd out don't' need repairs or maintenance. It doesn't exist.
EMT fittings, MC cable, aluminum feeder wire doesn't wear out. Breakers with a lower AIC rating don't break down. Aluminum bussing in switchboards last as long as copper.
The switchboards/panels and terminations should be serviced and scanned and re-torqued periodically on expensive gear as VE'd gear, does it not?
I think lighting is the main product that needs more continual maintenance re-lamping/ballasts and cleaning. Does a cheaper fixture need to be serviced more than an expensive one? They contain the same lamps and ballasts as the expensive one's in most cases (I'm talking commercial grade stuff here, not resi-grade)
Someone explain how VE'd electrical results in more repairs and maintenance.
I think crappy installs are the biggest cause.

Some items in some places will not wear out. Install EMT in an area that gets physical abuse at times and it very well need repair or replacement at some point where RMC or IMC may stand up to the abuse.

I have a building about 10 years old, the owners wanted me to check what is wrong with some exterior lighting. Several recessed 70 watt metal halide fixtures - all have bad ballasts. About half of the entire exterior lights are out. If I replace them guess what? The other half will probably be failing soon. These were typical fixtures I've seen specified a lot, or at least something very similar. They are expensive to start with and replacement ballasts are not cheap either. I would rather see some CFL fixtures myself. Maybe even something with LED - but remember it is about 10 years old, they may just specify some of that today. The CFL cost less both to install and maintain, and use less energy.

 

[Alwayslearningelec]

I don't completely agree. Things that are VE'd out don't' need repairs or maintenance. It doesn't exist.
EMT fittings, MC cable, aluminum feeder wire doesn't wear out. Breakers with a lower AIC rating don't break down. Aluminum bussing in switchboards last as long as copper.
The switchboards/panels and terminations should be serviced and scanned and re-torqued periodically on expensive gear as VE'd gear, does it not?
I think lighting is the main product that needs more continual maintenance re-lamping/ballasts and cleaning. Does a cheaper fixture need to be serviced more than an expensive one? They contain the same lamps and ballasts as the expensive one's in most cases (I'm talking commercial grade stuff here, not resi-grade)
Someone explain how VE'd electrical results in more repairs and maintenance.
I think crappy installs are the biggest cause.

How about if a job is industrial and RGS...would you propose EMT and why or why not? If it had to stay RGS could fittings save $$$? Thanks

 

[masterinbama]

How about if a job is industrial and RGS...would you propose EMT and why or why not? If it had to stay RGS could fittings save $$$? Thanks

That would depend on the industry.

Most of the VE projects around here the Engineer of record does the VE work. Most of the time it's substituting die cast for steel EMT fittings, aluminum feeders above a certain amperage and devices. (standard spec grade like CR 15 Hubbells Vs. 5262 Hubbells)

 

[weressl]

Value engineering = pay more later and less now

That is just so blatantly untrue. Now if you say that Contractors trying to be engineers, then I say it could be true. It is not Cost, it is Value. Value engineering, for example, does NOT exclude a higher initial cost. It is re-examining the project objectives, validating built-in spares, life-cycle costing, efficiency validation, etc.

 

[cdslotz]

How about if a job is industrial and RGS...would you propose EMT and why or why not? If it had to stay RGS could fittings save $$$? Thanks

I would not attempt to VE anything on a job like that.
That type job is usually public money. They are highly spec'd and for a reason.

Most VE is done for private jobs, offices, speculative retail, churches, etc where owners have budgets, so when the entire job is over budget, they look for savings in all trades

 

[zog]

That is just so blatantly untrue. Now if you say that Contractors trying to be engineers, then I say it could be true. It is not Cost, it is Value. Value engineering, for example, does NOT exclude a higher initial cost. It is re-examining the project objectives, validating built-in spares, life-cycle costing, efficiency validation, etc.

When I think of value engineering I think of someone deciding to by bolt in gear instead of drawout for example, then when they have to remove a bolted in 4000A main for maintenence or repairs it is a 4 hour outage instead of a 2 minute procedure.

 

[Alwayslearningelec]

I would not attempt to VE anything on a job like that.
That type job is usually public money. They are highly spec'd and for a reason.

Most VE is done for private jobs, offices, speculative retail, churches, etc where owners have budgets, so when the entire job is over budget, they look for savings in all trades

What if they requested VE ideas?

 

[copper chopper]

I agree with some of the other posts here, you can spend 80 hrs checking into this even is its a sealed bid and some how your numbers get into the hands of the EC that always works with this GC and they beat you out by 1 or 3 thousand.Another way at biding time is manpower,here in wisconsin they changed the rules in 2011 and lo-voltage techs can now install fire alarm wiring unless its a fully conduit system.These guys make half of what electricians do,also flooding the job with as many apprentices and materail handlers as the law will allow helps...

But agian this sucks if your trying to get your foot in the door at some place and they have a GC they always work with and its all for nothing on your part. All you have acomplished is not letting that EC get the profit they are used to and them keeping your guys not working...

But then agian sometimes it good that you dont get jobs like this, cause all that happens is the GC is total ass to you and your guys and makes life rough for the duration of the job and in the end this will be the only job you do there cause they like the other EC better...I have been on a couple of these jobs and could not wait till they ended... even your boss is an ass to everyone because he/she knows there isnt much if any profit here so get to work...:ashamed1: its a doggy dog world out there and coming up with VE ideas is great but letting the GC know about them might be the best idea, it shouldnt matter to them anyway only the owner and the engineer...

 

[Fulthrotl]

When I think of value engineering I think of someone deciding to by bolt in gear instead of drawout for example, then when they have to remove a bolted in 4000A main for maintenence or repairs it is a 4 hour outage instead of a 2 minute procedure.

when i think of value engineering, it's usually planning for the whole deal, not just initial building.....

if you want someone to substitute the cheapest stuff they can find, well, almost any hack can do that.
and "value engineering" is just a fluffer word for "make it cheaper".

it's the difference between screw type and stab in breakers. one is cheaper till you have to replace the
panel board cause you have burnt up tabs.

it's the difference between 1/2" pvc in a slab, and 3/4" minimum pvc in a slab.

most "value engineering" is explaining to the customer why the low price bidder is usually the most
expensive solution. your engineering is educating the customer, about the exclusion dance, the substitution
dance, and the "bid at zero profit and rape on extras" dance.

aluminum romex in residences in the 1970's was "value engineering".

as for the "keep em honest" bid, i've gone on bids where you KNOW the only reason that you are
there is to knock someone else's bid down. who is going to get the work is a done deal. you don't
stand a snowballs chance in phoenix of getting the work.

if it's under 7 or 8k, i've been known to just take off the material, and turn 125% of that in as a bid.
never gotten one of those, thank god, but the guy who got the buddy deal and can peek at my number
and underbid it by $500 can steal all the chain he can swim with.

if i did get it, oh, well... toss it in and move on. lost a couple days of my life doing it. i'll survive.

edit: the last buddy deal, where i was the buddy, it took me almost a year to get paid, on a 2 week
job. don't do me any favors, thanks.

 

[kwired]

I agree with some of the other posts here, you can spend 80 hrs checking into this even is its a sealed bid and some how your numbers get into the hands of the EC that always works with this GC and they beat you out by 1 or 3 thousand.Another way at biding time is manpower,here in wisconsin they changed the rules in 2011 and lo-voltage techs can now install fire alarm wiring unless its a fully conduit system.These guys make half of what electricians do,also flooding the job with as many apprentices and materail handlers as the law will allow helps...

But agian this sucks if your trying to get your foot in the door at some place and they have a GC they always work with and its all for nothing on your part. All you have acomplished is not letting that EC get the profit they are used to and them keeping your guys not working...

But then agian sometimes it good that you dont get jobs like this, cause all that happens is the GC is total ass to you and your guys and makes life rough for the duration of the job and in the end this will be the only job you do there cause they like the other EC better...I have been on a couple of these jobs and could not wait till they ended... even your boss is an ass to everyone because he/she knows there isnt much if any profit here so get to work...:ashamed1: its a doggy dog world out there and coming up with VE ideas is great but letting the GC know about them might be the best idea, it shouldnt matter to them anyway only the owner and the engineer...

If the EC always works with the GC you are not getting the job no matter how low your bid is. You need to find a GC that you can get that kind of relationship with and they will always get you work. Do good work for them and don't try to pull one over on them, on a consistant basis and they will value your service. If they do hire someone else for a particular project because you were too high they likely will find out why that EC was cheap and wish they never hired them. You will get the next project that comes up with little or no questions.

 

[weressl]

When trying to value engineer a job in the estimating phase what are some of the basics " substitutions/alternatives" you apply. I am sure a lot depends on what is specified. Also, I never understood this as I would imagine if you VE something in the estimate and give this info to the GC doesn't he have to have all other bidders price this? So how can VE be an advantage to an EC during the bidding process? THanks.

Please understand that almost ALL the replies and discussions have hardly anything to do with value ENGINEERING. Value engineering happens in the engineering, not the bidding phase.

As I pointed out the focus is not on the price, but on the VALUE of the final product as it relates to its functionality, useful life, especially focusing in lifecycle cost.

Perhaps the easiest to understand/relate to is cars. Scion/Toyota/Lexus are all come out of the same engineering group. Initially there was Toyota. Then they created the Lexus line of value engineered products, which added comfort and advanced technological features and higher reliability for additional cost and to compete in the luxury car market. Then they added the Scion line which provided an automobile with less features, lesser comfort, higher noise, while still claiming to maintain reasonable service and reliability at a lesser price.

Value engineering is a series of cost/benefit calculations and decisions based on differing set of objective criteria.

 

[cdslotz]

Please understand that almost ALL the replies and discussions have hardly anything to do with value ENGINEERING. Value engineering happens in the engineering, not the bidding phase.

As I pointed out the focus is not on the price, but on the VALUE of the final product as it relates to its functionality, useful life, especially focusing in lifecycle cost.

Perhaps the easiest to understand/relate to is cars. Scion/Toyota/Lexus are all come out of the same engineering group. Initially there was Toyota. Then they created the Lexus line of value engineered products, which added comfort and advanced technological features and higher reliability for additional cost and to compete in the luxury car market. Then they added the Scion line which provided an automobile with less features, lesser comfort, higher noise, while still claiming to maintain reasonable service and reliability at a lesser price.

Value engineering is a series of cost/benefit calculations and decisions based on differing set of objective criteria.

All due respect, then why am I continually pricing shopping lists of savings after I just bid 100% CD drawings?
Although the EE has considered value to the design with respect to functionality and efficiency, they still cut/paste the same old specs, notes and details on every job they design. I know because I see the same EE's drawings over and over again.
Some jobs are not big feeder jobs, so no real savings are there to offer, but the next job I see by the EE might be a huge savings. I can't think of a greater "value" than offer huge savings for something that will function exactly like the specified.

 

[kwired]

All due respect, then why am I continually pricing shopping lists of savings after I just bid 100% CD drawings?
Although the EE has considered value to the design with respect to functionality and efficiency, they still cut/paste the same old specs, notes and details on every job they design. I know because I see the same EE's drawings over and over again.
Some jobs are not big feeder jobs, so no real savings are there to offer, but the next job I see by the EE might be a huge savings. I can't think of a greater "value" than offer huge savings for something that will function exactly like the specified.

Don't you just love to read some cut and paste specs for things that will not even be encountered on certain jobs?

I think the true meaning of "value engineering" and the meaning that is given to it in the situation OP mentions are different. We have a complicated English language to begin with, then people use words incorrectly and it is not always obvious. No wonder we have to debate just about everything.

 

[weressl]

All due respect, then why am I continually pricing shopping lists of savings after I just bid 100% CD drawings?
Although the EE has considered value to the design with respect to functionality and efficiency, they still cut/paste the same old specs, notes and details on every job they design. I know because I see the same EE's drawings over and over again.
Some jobs are not big feeder jobs, so no real savings are there to offer, but the next job I see by the EE might be a huge savings. I can't think of a greater "value" than offer huge savings for something that will function exactly like the specified.

One suggestion: when responding to a post by including the post itself, try to engage the substance of the points made therein.

 

[cdslotz]

The post police have arrived

 

[weressl]

The post police have arrived

Nonsense, you raised an objection to my post with a straw-men argument. You could have just simply raised your point without including my post.

 

[cdslotz]

Nonsense, you raised an objection to my post with a straw-men argument. You could have just simply raised your point without including my post.

Nonsense, I objected to your statement declaring that everyone's discussion, up to the point where you jumped in, is wrong and that VE doesn't occur in the bidding phase, but the engineering phase.
It may have a different meaning to you in the engineering world, but in the GC/EC/Owner world that I live in, VE occurs during the bid process almost 100% of the time.

So answer my original question: If all VE was done in the engineering phase, why do I have to come up with a long list of savings ideas AFTER I bid 100% documents?

IMHO this is the type of VE the OP is referring to, not the car analogy. Whatever that was.....

 

[Alwayslearningelec]

Originally Posted by cdslotz
I would not attempt to VE anything on a job like that.
That type job is usually public money. They are highly spec'd and for a reason.

Most VE is done for private jobs, offices, speculative retail, churches, etc where owners have budgets, so when the entire job is over budget, they look for savings in all trades


What if they requested VE ideas and it was all RGS ... Can RGS Fittings be VE

 

[kwired]

Maybe bargain engineering would be a better term to use for the topic being discussed.

 

[weressl]

Nonsense, I objected to your statement declaring that everyone's discussion, up to the point where you jumped in, is wrong and that VE doesn't occur in the bidding phase, but the engineering phase.
It may have a different meaning to you in the engineering world, but in the GC/EC/Owner world that I live in, VE occurs during the bid process almost 100% of the time.

So answer my original question: If all VE was done in the engineering phase, why do I have to come up with a long list of savings ideas AFTER I bid 100% documents?

IMHO this is the type of VE the OP is referring to, not the car analogy. Whatever that was.....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Value_engineering

I am not only an engineer, designer, estimator and one-time construction manager but also the owner. Value Engineering is part of our Project Management process.