I am in Japan for a machine check out. The machine will be sent to the US. The machine does not have any j-boxes for terminations,24 volt and 200 volt. They use only plugs and some of the wiring has no protection or outer covering. The phase wiring is red white blue and green ground. I told them that the white wiring had to be changed and the all wiring had to trminate in j-boxes. Am I correct on this. Thanks
Japan Machine Wiring
- Thread starter tomd53
- Start date
- Status
- Location
- Massachusetts
The NEC does not apply to machines.
- Location
- Massachusetts
NFPA 79 I believe.
I'm unsure about the area where the equipment is being installed (MO ?), but many jurisdictions require any equipment to be listed by a N.R.T.L. (such as UL, CSA, ETL). The listing agency assures the equipment is wired to the applicable standard. As Bob states that standard is rarely NEC.
I would check to see if NRTL certification is required by your State, local AHJ or customer.
I would check to see if NRTL certification is required by your State, local AHJ or customer.
renosteinke
Senior Member
- Location
- NE Arkansas
The wires that are part of the machine itself are not and NEC issue. Think of the machine as an "appliance." The NEC pretty much stops at the connection.
Sure, SOME appliances need to be 'listed,' and standards exist for them ... but even in those cases it all comes down to 'engineering,' rather than codes.
So, what does the American consumer of foreign machinery need to specify? Well, we need approariate attachment points and the ability to bond the machine to our grounding system. We need proper identification and labeling- after all, those 'receptacles' on the machine might look 'normal,' but I bet they don't supply 120v 60hz!
It also comes down to 'trust.' And, at the risk of being politically incorrect, you need to have some understanding of with whom you are dealing. While some cultures (Japan, Germany, Switzerland, etc.) are quite technically competent and make a virtue of fine engineering, others (China, Nigeria, Albania) have a very different set of priorities.
Sure, SOME appliances need to be 'listed,' and standards exist for them ... but even in those cases it all comes down to 'engineering,' rather than codes.
So, what does the American consumer of foreign machinery need to specify? Well, we need approariate attachment points and the ability to bond the machine to our grounding system. We need proper identification and labeling- after all, those 'receptacles' on the machine might look 'normal,' but I bet they don't supply 120v 60hz!
It also comes down to 'trust.' And, at the risk of being politically incorrect, you need to have some understanding of with whom you are dealing. While some cultures (Japan, Germany, Switzerland, etc.) are quite technically competent and make a virtue of fine engineering, others (China, Nigeria, Albania) have a very different set of priorities.
dbaird
Member
- Location
- Dayton, OH
Applicable US Standards:
NEC Article's 409 and 670; NFPA 79 Electrical Standard for Industrial Machinery; UL 508A Industrial Control Panels.
NEC Article's 409 and 670; NFPA 79 Electrical Standard for Industrial Machinery; UL 508A Industrial Control Panels.
the blur
Senior Member
- Location
- cyberspace
I deal with alot of european machinery. most of it is top notch quality, with quality built control panels. L1 L2 L3 usually get connected to a terminal block in the control panel. Not much different that any other machine.
one problem we've encountered is 208 volts on a machine rated for 220 volts. sometimes we need to replace the transformer to get the 24volt control voltage up to 24 volts. most come with a multitap transformer.
one problem we've encountered is 208 volts on a machine rated for 220 volts. sometimes we need to replace the transformer to get the 24volt control voltage up to 24 volts. most come with a multitap transformer.
jimnan88
Member
- Location
- California
Is the wire labeled?
I have had to rewire entire machines coming from europe and asia because they did not stamp the wiring. NEC, NFPA 79, UL does not mean anything if the wiring is not labeled you're done no municipality is going to accept this unless it is very low VA with a very low voltage. Depending on the municipality you may end up rebuilding everything.
When you build the electrical system of machinery you have to have an understanding of NEC, NFPA-79, and NFPA-70E. There are articles within the NEC that pertain to machinery, it does not just stop at the power entrance.
Next problem is that more and more municipalities are requiring UL. Depending on the equipment this can be very difficult. for instance there are very few UL Listed ROBOT controls, most have to be isolated and wired as a independent device outside of the electrical panel to label the panel.
I would double check the wiring and make sure the wiring is stamped ( by stamped it should have a size and a voltage and an insulation type stamped on the wire) , next make sure the branch protection is made of good components that are labeled by some lab and clearly marked. CE does not really mean anything in the US. Lastly I would check the voltage and confirm the voltage difference to ground if you get above a certain levels " I think 150 VAC to ground" ( check in the NEC) then different requirements start coming into play. The voltage level from ground is another item to look at. 200 volts japanees may not be equivalent to 208 US, why because 208 US is only 120 VAC to ground, where as 200 japanees may very well be 200 VAC to ground and be viewed more like a 460 VAC circuit which the wye configuration of the source would be 277.
I have had to rewire entire machines coming from europe and asia because they did not stamp the wiring. NEC, NFPA 79, UL does not mean anything if the wiring is not labeled you're done no municipality is going to accept this unless it is very low VA with a very low voltage. Depending on the municipality you may end up rebuilding everything.
When you build the electrical system of machinery you have to have an understanding of NEC, NFPA-79, and NFPA-70E. There are articles within the NEC that pertain to machinery, it does not just stop at the power entrance.
Next problem is that more and more municipalities are requiring UL. Depending on the equipment this can be very difficult. for instance there are very few UL Listed ROBOT controls, most have to be isolated and wired as a independent device outside of the electrical panel to label the panel.
I would double check the wiring and make sure the wiring is stamped ( by stamped it should have a size and a voltage and an insulation type stamped on the wire) , next make sure the branch protection is made of good components that are labeled by some lab and clearly marked. CE does not really mean anything in the US. Lastly I would check the voltage and confirm the voltage difference to ground if you get above a certain levels " I think 150 VAC to ground" ( check in the NEC) then different requirements start coming into play. The voltage level from ground is another item to look at. 200 volts japanees may not be equivalent to 208 US, why because 208 US is only 120 VAC to ground, where as 200 japanees may very well be 200 VAC to ground and be viewed more like a 460 VAC circuit which the wye configuration of the source would be 277.
the blur
Senior Member
- Location
- cyberspace
I have never heard of a municipality worrying about a machine used in industry. But with the gov't taking over everything else, hey, why not.
Some of these machines are so industry specific, no one has ever seen them before.
Some of these machines are so industry specific, no one has ever seen them before.
jimnan88
Member
- Location
- California
In Cali?
Los Angeles, Anahiem, Pico Rivera on and on and on. Any more more and more especially the big ones (cities)want UL.
You can choose to install the equipment without a permit but that will just lead to problems later when you get caught.
it gets pretty hard to sneak in a large open width textile machine through the back door, or papermill equipment.
So lots depends on the size of the equipement and the supply voltage.
Los Angeles, Anahiem, Pico Rivera on and on and on. Any more more and more especially the big ones (cities)want UL.
You can choose to install the equipment without a permit but that will just lead to problems later when you get caught.
it gets pretty hard to sneak in a large open width textile machine through the back door, or papermill equipment.
So lots depends on the size of the equipement and the supply voltage.
petersonra
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern illinois
- Occupation
- engineer
I never heard of any industrial machine that is UL listed. The control panels can be listed, and often are, but not the machine itself.
Most foreign machine builders can supply a UL listed control panel but it usually adds cost to the job.
i agree with the guy that said NEC does not really apply to the guts of these kind of things. It is like saying the NEC applies to the guts of a clock or a toaster.
jimnan88
Member
- Location
- California
Listing an entire machine is costly, but it has been done. usually on the actual machine FM, CSA, and UL listing of the various devices is what they look for. Usually the control panel is listed and labeled as UL. It depends again on the inspector of that area, and how stringent they are.
I would not want to get involved in trying to install a japanees machine in LA or especvially Pico Rivera, it would hard enough in a Friendly place like Vernon.
I have had to rip Italian machines completely down because the cabling and wiring was not stamped. I have seen disconnects come in on some foriegn machines where the feeder protection is not a listed device. Then it starts again, the minute the inspector finds one thing like that then they really starts looking.
Gas burners, Electric heaters and large motors are principal devices they will look.
I have worked on a number of Japanees offset printing presses, and I remember what the control system looked like, I doubt highly you could ligitimately install this in So. Cal.
I would not want to get involved in trying to install a japanees machine in LA or especvially Pico Rivera, it would hard enough in a Friendly place like Vernon.
I have had to rip Italian machines completely down because the cabling and wiring was not stamped. I have seen disconnects come in on some foriegn machines where the feeder protection is not a listed device. Then it starts again, the minute the inspector finds one thing like that then they really starts looking.
Gas burners, Electric heaters and large motors are principal devices they will look.
I have worked on a number of Japanees offset printing presses, and I remember what the control system looked like, I doubt highly you could ligitimately install this in So. Cal.
petersonra
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern illinois
- Occupation
- engineer
Sure you could. You mgiht need to get some kind of dispensation from the AHJ to do so in a few cases.
Every AHJ has some means of dealing with unique situations that are not readily covered by the rules.
It would probably be much easier to get the dispensation if you asked up front though. And it is not really something an electrician or EC would be the appropriate entity to go and do the asking.
petersonra
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern illinois
- Occupation
- engineer
Just out of curiousity, just what file number would an industrial machine be listed under? If there is no file number for it, how would UL list it?
- Status