Ty Raps to support rigid PVC??

[buddhakii]

There is code compliance and there are also industry standards. This type of installation method would be way below the standard in the industry I work in. To answer your question, just because something meets the requirement of the code does not necessarily mean it's right. I have seen plenty of examples of code compliant installations that are just plain poor design and wrong. I suppose there is an industry that zip ties would be and acceptable support I have just never worked in it. If I was the customer and my electrician used this method in my greenhouse they would not work for me again.

 

[kwired]

If I was the customer and my electrician used this method in my greenhouse they would not work for me again.

If you were the customer you probably would know almost nothing about electrical codes and not know any better either way. In fact if you were the customer and your electrician used a bunch of hardware that cost just as much or even more than the raceway it supported you may actually question if it was necessary vs something like zip ties.

 

[Cow]

Anybody remember that job MDShunk did with all the runs of SE cable wrapping around an apartment building? That'd be a good pic for Buddhakii to look at....

 

[weressl]

I can't find anywhere in the NEC that specifically prohibits using ty raps to fasten PVC to building frame members. I have a contractor fighting me on this issue. We have a newly constructed greenhouse at our new high school; the interior is classified as a wet location. I made them remove tie wire in a couple of areas where they had to run conduit parallel to existing strut. Since unistrut straps will only work on a perpendicular install, they went back with ty raps. I'm trying to get the engineering firms to get them to add strut where neccesary, but in the meantime I'm trying to find out if ty raps are prohibited for use as a means of "fastening". ??

Y'all understand what IN MY OPINION means?!

Now that we cleared that up, the fact that - on a forum that supposed to be for professionals in the electrical trade - this topic is a subject of opinion and discussion whether it is right or wrong shows that the trade is going to hell in a hand-basket.:ashamed1:

 

[buddhakii]

If you were the customer you probably would know almost nothing about electrical codes and not know any better either way. In fact if you were the customer and your electrician used a bunch of hardware that cost just as much or even more than the raceway it supported you may actually question if it was necessary vs something like zip ties.

So if the customer is ignorant does that give you a free pass to do whatever you want as long as it is code compliant? So it's ok to question excess but not ok to question low workmanship? All you guys using zip ties to support conduit please continue to do so. It keeps my job safe when I get to go re-support it.

 

[kwired]

So if the customer is ignorant does that give you a free pass to do whatever you want as long as it is code compliant?

The truth is .. yes. Even if the customer is not all that ignorant. It is your work, you are the one that is supposably going to stand behind it if it fails, if they don't like it they can hire someone else.

So it's ok to question excess but not ok to question low workmanship?

Both are a matter of opinion and are both allowed to be questioned.

All you guys using zip ties to support conduit please continue to do so. It keeps my job safe when I get to go re-support it.

Although I generally do not use zip ties to support conduits I will say that every installation has its differences.
Most of anything that I have used zip ties for was flexible conduits or cables. Not sure I have ever supported open RNC with cable ties, though if a heavy enough tie may be better than some PVC straps I have seen.

 

[buddhakii]

The truth is .. yes. Even if the customer is not all that ignorant. It is your work, you are the one that is supposably going to stand behind it if it fails, if they don't like it they can hire someone else.

I agree. Kind of what I said in post #21

Both are a matter of opinion and are both allowed to be questioned.


I agree.

Although I generally do not use zip ties to support conduits I will say that every installation has its differences.
Most of anything that I have used zip ties for was flexible conduits or cables. Not sure I have ever supported open RNC with cable ties, though if a heavy enough tie may be better than some PVC straps I have seen.

There are high quality zip ties that are probably better than pvc straps and if installed properly would function better. Probably be more expensive too.

 

[iwire]

So if the customer is ignorant does that give you a free pass to do whatever you want as long as it is code compliant?

Pretty much yes.

That does not mean I think it is a wise choice, just a legal choice.

 

[iwire]

There is code compliance and there are also industry standards.

Any standards that need to be met should be clearly spelled out in the contract.

just because something meets the requirement of the code does not necessarily mean it's right.

Conversely just because you don't like an installation does not make it wrong.

I have seen plenty of examples of code compliant installations that are just plain poor design and wrong.

Poor design? Yeah no doubt it happens.

Wrong? That is opinion and entirety subjective.

If I was the customer and my electrician used this method in my greenhouse they would not work for me again.

And maybe the customer got exactly what they paid for.

 

[bigtig50]

The black tie wraps are UV rated for outdoor use.

 

[bigtig50]

I have no problem SECURING the pvc with tie wraps when it runs on top of framing members cause there is no load on the wrap. I WOULD have a problem SUPPORTING it with tie wraps in as much as I wouldn't trust the integrity of the wrap, especially over a longer period of time.

 

[jwelectric]

I saw some PVC that was lying on the ceiling joist once that were held in place with diamond masonry line. What would this installation be called? It had been there for years and years.

 

[hurk27]

I wish the NEC had definitions for securing and supporting as over the years I have seen so many wrong interpretations of requirements because people don't realize there is a difference, in most cases supporting can be as simple as just laying on the ceiling joist, or other support that would clearly support the weight of the wiring method, while at box's or other termination points we are required to secure the wiring method to prevent strain to the termination point, most wiring methods do not require securing after it has been secured within the required distance from the termination point, and only requires supporting till the next point of termination, if the wiring method can move from its own weight that would not allow it to stay in the location it was put in then sure it needs to be secured again some what to prevent it from moving like on a angled support that the wiring method would just fall off, but I think we need to look more at these two requirements without crossing them up.

Support only has to over come gravity, securing has to over come any movment.

At least this is my thought on it.

 

[hurk27]

As far as Ty-Raps go, I think a little common sense can go along way, would I support a run of PVC with them, (again using the proper definition of supporting) most likely not, as we all know over time with heat, and other thing that can cause them to fail, I can still remember a time when one of our guys used ty-raps to support a run of EMT he ran trying to get a machine back up and running faster, after he had energized the feeders in the conduit he went back to install regular pipe straps, and bumped the pipe, which started a chain reaction and the pipe run fell and sparks flew, it was like a domino effect as the load of the pipe and conductors was transfered to the next ty-rap it broke and continued all the way down the line.

Now would I use them to keep a wiring method from moving around, as long as the failure of it would not present the above from happening then yes in a heart beat, again we need to use a little common sense.

 

[weressl]

Wow. I'd never consider tie wraps as an acceptable support for conduits. IMO, I don't see how this complies with the NEC.

But I'm apparently in the minority (or even all alone!!).

Edit: I re-read the original post - the first time I read it I didn't see that the conduit was resting on framing members. I might be able to accept tie-wraps for securing - I thought they were using them to support the conduit.

Still, I wonder how they will hold up in the sunlight??

Some Ty-Wraps are manufactures and tested for UV resistance and routinely used to secure cables in cable trays on horizontal installation AND support those in vertical installation. I still would not call out for them, nor would I permit them to be used as conduit supports or even for securing them when support is assured as the OP described.