combination inspector
New member
- Location
- LaGrange County, Indiana
Where in the 2011 NEC is bonding of CSST addressed and where in the 2011 NEC is Grounding of CSST addressed?
csst bonding or grounding
- Thread starter combination inspector
- Start date
- Status
- Location
- Chapel Hill, NC
- Occupation
- Retired Electrical Contractor
You will not find it in the NEC however it is in the manufacturers instruction. In general if you bond it per 250.66 you are good. Some brands just say a #6 back to the service.
If it (CSST) is connected to an appliance that is connected to the equipment grounding conductor that supplies the appliance, do you still have to run the #6 back? I think the fuel gas code has something like that stated. Do manufacturers instructions supersede IFGC?
- Location
- Chapel Hill, NC
- Occupation
- Retired Electrical Contractor
Manufacturers instructions that are part of the listing must be complied with. The CSST in all cases must be bonded with more than the egc except for the CSST called counterstrike made by Omegaflex. There may be others but counterstrike does not require additional bonding. Of course, I don't trust the stuff so I bond it anyway.
I guess with gas I wouldn't either...I have seen some installed that depended on the stove ground. Just curious about your thoughts...
- Location
- Chapel Hill, NC
- Occupation
- Retired Electrical Contractor
That is fine for black iron pipe or non csst. CSST we enter a new world with new rules.
- Location
- Illinois
- Occupation
- retired electrician
The reason that there is no specific bonding requirement for the CSST is that the proposers (manufacturers) could not provide any technical substantiation to CMP 5 that the proposed bonding would solve the problem that needs to be addressed.
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
I don't trust the stuff either - and have none in my home. I don't have any gas at all but would not want any of that stuff if I did. Just how much cost does it add to most homes to run black pipe instead? IMO not enough to be worth the risk with that thin walled crap.
But I have no choice when working in someone else home as I don't do gas work. Have to deal with what is there. There typically is no inspection of gas lines by a building inspector around here, but there are about as many different opinions by installers of the stuff as there are installers on how it should be grounded. I always ask them why they even want to bother with the stuff, but never get a good enough answer to ever want to use the stuff in my home.
hurk27
Senior Member
- Location
- Portage, Indiana NEC: 2008
This PDF in this link will provide much needed info on this subject:
http://hawkeyehomeinspects.com/documents/CSST-DANGERS.pdf
My input, as in knowing how this occurs and what the effects are, the only way I see to reduce the lightning current on a run of CSST would be to place a large conductor in parallel with the run of CSST, especially where the CSST runs to any appliance that has a flue that breaks the roof line, I.E. fire places, Furnaces, Water Heaters, Etc...
Installing a bond to just one end makes no sense as this will invite the lightning to flow on the CSST to reach this bond, even a parallel conductor can not guarantee that lightning will now flow on the CSST because of the high frequency components of lightning.
I agree with the others that this is one type of gas line I would not allow in my house.
http://hawkeyehomeinspects.com/documents/CSST-DANGERS.pdf
My input, as in knowing how this occurs and what the effects are, the only way I see to reduce the lightning current on a run of CSST would be to place a large conductor in parallel with the run of CSST, especially where the CSST runs to any appliance that has a flue that breaks the roof line, I.E. fire places, Furnaces, Water Heaters, Etc...
Installing a bond to just one end makes no sense as this will invite the lightning to flow on the CSST to reach this bond, even a parallel conductor can not guarantee that lightning will now flow on the CSST because of the high frequency components of lightning.
I agree with the others that this is one type of gas line I would not allow in my house.
masterdiver
Member
bonding of csst
bonding of csst
bonding of csst piping is in the 2009 fuel gas code 310.1 and the 2009 international residential building code g2411.1.1, not in the 2011 NEC
bonding of csst
bonding of csst piping is in the 2009 fuel gas code 310.1 and the 2009 international residential building code g2411.1.1, not in the 2011 NEC
- Location
- Chapel Hill, NC
- Occupation
- Retired Electrical Contractor
This is true and the 2011 now has an informational note Number 2 in art. 104(B) directing us to the 2009 Fuel and Gas Code Section 7.13
- Location
- Chapel Hill, NC
- Occupation
- Retired Electrical Contractor
mike7330
Senior Member
- Location
- North America
This piping is dangerous. If you are the one bonding it make sure your insurance is paid up!
2 millions homes with this csst piping installed and they are very worried about it.
The csst pipe acts as an antenna with lightning and burns holes in the pipe.
they now have a new pipe with shielding and semi?conductive
polymer jackets
http://www.firstcommunicate.com/titeflex/gastite/g61601/
If this was in my house I would rip it out.
2 millions homes with this csst piping installed and they are very worried about it.
The csst pipe acts as an antenna with lightning and burns holes in the pipe.
they now have a new pipe with shielding and semi?conductive
polymer jackets
http://www.firstcommunicate.com/titeflex/gastite/g61601/
If this was in my house I would rip it out.
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
I wouldn't trust the new stuff either.
Doesn't Ohm's law suggest that the tubing will still carry the majority of the current as compard to a semi-conductive coating?
What is wrong with good ol black pipe that will take some abuse?
- Location
- Chapel Hill, NC
- Occupation
- Retired Electrical Contractor
Nothing wrong with it but it is alot more costly to install. I try to get the builders to not use it but to no avail. we seem to be ultimately responsible. FWIW, I do bond the counterstrike, by Omegaflex, even though they say you don't have to.
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
A lot more? That depends on how many gas appliances there are and how spread out they are in the building.
If all you have is appliances in one room - like a furnace and water heater and that line enters the building into that room I don't see that the difference will be that significant - especially if the piping is exposed.
Old guys still know how to run pipe. New guys don't do enough of it to be good at it, everything if flexible piping now.
General rules of gas code don't allow fittings in concealed locations - in case they may leak from my understanding.
I trust black iron fittings more than I trust CSST. Welded fittings are allowed AFAIK, I would trust them even more. Todays HVAC guys would not be capable of welding their gas lines though - you only see this in industrial environments for the most part, or the gas companies distribution maintenance crews.
- Location
- Chapel Hill, NC
- Occupation
- Retired Electrical Contractor
I wired a 7,000 sq. ft house that had burned down. The cost of the job was going to be around 2-3 million. The HVAC guys show up and start running CSST until I stopped them. I said you better speak with the HO as I knew she would not go for it. I am sure that job cost more but I know the HO is sleeping better at night.
Electricians wil also take the easier road so why shouldn't they. Many are not as aware as we are of the problems with the product. What amazes me is that the agencies involved have not stopped it.
Electricians wil also take the easier road so why shouldn't they. Many are not as aware as we are of the problems with the product. What amazes me is that the agencies involved have not stopped it.
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
Probably not a whole lot different than AFCI manufacturers putting a lot of effort into getting their product into the code.
I still don't get what good a bonding jumper around this piping does? The piping is still a conductor, if we assume equal resistance in the bonding jumper as the piping - that means current evenly divides between piping and bonding jumper. Now resistance of each is not normally going to be equal but will likely be close enough that maybe 35-40 percent of current flows in one and the rest in the other. In a lightning event that is still a lot of current for the thin walled tubing to have to withstand without having any damage that may result in leaks.
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
The product probably does not have enough incidents of bad results to justify preventing its use. Still does not mean I have to like the product.
- Location
- Chapel Hill, NC
- Occupation
- Retired Electrical Contractor
Only time will tell. If fires strike with the bonding on then that will be a telling sign. Of course the reverse will be hard to tell until all the piping is bonded.
- Status