Bonding/Grounding to water pipe of detached structures?

[ritelec]

Hi everyone.

There's a camp that's been wired and rewired throughout the years.

There's a 400 amp 3 phase 4 wire service (high leg) which comes overhead from the utility to a shed where a ct cab and two (3 phase 200a) disconnects are. There is also a 100a mb single phase panel and a 100 2 pole breaker to feed a

house. There is no grounding of the service at this point, and it looks like they grabbed for a neutral for the 100 amp panel and the 100 amp breaker from the service ground in the ct cabinet. From the 200 amp disconnects they feed back

up and out overhead for north camp area and the south camp area.

There are no neutrals (grounds) in the disconnects, and the feeds going back out to supply the camp go through a rusty box that I can't get open and can only "assume" that they lugged the bare wire of the ariel cable to the box (the wiring

method in the shed is rigid conduit , metal troughs, and boxes).

All the wiring to the buildings (structures, pavilions) are fed by 4 wire (?triplex) - 3 phase (insulated) with ground (bare). At the building and or pavilion, they tapped to a phase and ground, or two or three phases and ground depending on

their needs.

At the structure, they would drop to a breaker (or main brk panel) and drive a ground rod (or go to a water pipe if there was one in that structure or to a driven pipe) and bond to the bare of the arial cable dropped to that location (for a

neutral).

Basically, it looks like they dropped a meter(ct) for the utility company then wired the camp as if they were the utility company...


If I where to ground the service "at" the utility shed (there is no water pipe), I would have to create my own grounding electrode system. If I go back overhead or below grade to feed the camp, how should I address the stuctures that have water piping going to them?


Did I mention there's a large in-ground pool at this camp? What a mess.

Thank you for your insight.

Rich

 

[ritelec]

There is also a 100a mb single phase panel and a 100 2 pole breaker to feed a
house.

Will be doing a walk through with the powers that be.

In the mean time. The owner wants to straighten things out piece by piece. He want's to start with the house (the 100a 2 pole breaker feeding the house...under ground in an inch and a half rigid). He would like to replace the 100 a house
panel with a 200 a and also add a sub panel off that.

Do I replace the 100 amp 2 pole disconnect with a 200 amp at the non grounded service shed, bring a neutral "and" ground to the house (which has a water meter) for the future?

Do I tap off the utility conductors before the ct.... drop a single phase thee wire to the house and install a meter there and ground that service as normal.

I'm favoring the 2nd.

But then what about the rest of the camp?

Did I mention the pool?

WOW

 

[ActionDave]

Will be doing a walk through with the powers that be.

In the mean time. The owner wants to straighten things out piece by piece. He want's to start with the house (the 100a 2 pole breaker feeding the house...under ground in an inch and a half rigid). He would like to replace the 100 a house
panel with a 200 a and also add a sub panel off that.

Do I replace the 100 amp 2 pole disconnect with a 200 amp at the non grounded service shed, bring a neutral "and" ground to the house (which has a water meter) for the future?

Do I tap off the utility conductors before the ct.... drop a single phase thee wire to the house and install a meter there and ground that service as normal.

I'm favoring the 2nd.

What does the Power Company say?

But then what about the rest of the camp?

Did I mention the pool?

WOW

You either have service conductors or feeder conductors. After the first disconnect it's a feeder and gets a separate neutral and equipment ground, each structure get it's own ground rod, at a minimum. The pool gets filled with epoxy and lives on as a year round skating rink.

 

[Joethemechanic]

What does the Power Company say?

You either have service conductors or feeder conductors. After the first disconnect it's a feeder and gets a separate neutral and equipment ground, each structure get it's own ground rod, at a minimum. The pool gets filled with epoxy and lives on as a year round skating rink.

It sounds like a lot of his aerial cables are going to be one conductor short huh?

One time about 25 years ago I got the bright idea to wind one more conductor around some messenger supported triplex to make quad. After about doing that for about 100 feet it got old real fast. I told the guy to buy the right wire for the rest of the spans.

Just curious though, what would the code say about ny-ties to add a conductor? UV rated ones of course.

 

[ritelec]

It sounds like a lot of his aerial cables are going to be one conductor short huh?

YES

I got the bright idea to wind one more conductor around some messenger supported triplex to make quad. After about doing that for about 100 feet it got old real fast.

Yes, or was thinking to can the 3 phase, and use one of those insulated conductors as the neutral..........but he has 3 phase equipment north and south that would still need it.

What does the Power Company say?

You either have service conductors or feeder conductors. After the first disconnect it's a feeder and gets a separate neutral and equipment ground, each structure get it's own ground rod, at a minimum. The pool gets filled with epoxy and lives on as a year round skating rink.

As a feeder (with neutral "and" ground), the detached structures get a ground rod (minimum) too.
Thought the only ground was to be from the feeder. Please confirm.

(off topic yet still on topic....... I brought a 60 amp feed to my garage years ago (single phase 3 wire with ground.....main lug panel inside). As time past and codes changed, it would be in violation for not having a separate disconnect on the outside of the structure, however I always understood it to be that there should be no separate grounds created at that point).


As far as the power company...........I need to make some calls and get someone out there to get their take on it.

Maybe abandon the shed as metering and the first ocp, and have them run lines through the camp, adding service drops to the buildings with separate meters, and install feeders and circuits to smaller buildings and pavilions.


This is turning into like rewiring a small town..................



"Skating Rink"-------- I could see that, if it would get cold again like it did 35 years ago..........................ha ha ha


Thanks for the feedback ..........time to open the book and read on grounds to detached buildings (and how to build a skating rink).


I'll keep ya's posted.

 

[ritelec]

I'm thinking the separate ground rod is necessary, but still haven't located the article.

I found posts on other sights that showed this, also making reference to 250.52 and did a search or three here, but I can not locate.

Any suggestion where it may be or direction to Mike Holtz groovy cartoons illustrating and referencing this code install?

Will continue looking.

Thank you.

Rich

 

[ritelec]

I'm on a roll..... 250.32 Onward.

 

[ritelec]

Just when I think I don't know what I'm doing...............................I always seem to prove myself right!


Thank you for bringing this to my attention.


(good thing I've been paying attention in all these continuing education courses)



OT................in Jersey, we're required 34 hours of CEU for license renewals.....................how about the rest of the U.S.?


OK......that's enough for now..........off to google "skating rinks".