AFCI 1000 watt dimming Max

[Sierrasparky]

LED http://www.conservationmart.com/p-1863-tcp-3w-dimmable-flame-tip-led-torpedo-ldcf3wh27k.aspx

Clod Cathode CFL http://www.globalindustrial.com/p/e...campaign=Cold-Cathode&infoParam.campaignId=WR

I appreciate your input. However none of my customers will go for such hokey lights. A customer who spends 3,000 on a real antler chandelier is not going to accept a light bulb like those. The cheapo customers are not putting up with the CFL or LED fixtures and asking them to be changed out after inspection.

I have no issue in the future adding more circuits to deal with this issue however I will be bidding against someone who is not!

 

[Sierrasparky]

i spoke to Murray I could not get anyone to comment either way. They would only state that they comply with spec.

 

[Sierrasparky]

Bump ,
I have found no written documentaion of this issue. I cannot belive no one else is concerned. :?

 

[George Stolz]

Ode never replied.

If I were you, I'd just take it one step at a time. Wait for a nuisance trip to get in a panic; then simply remove the dimmer. IMO, the NEC overrules a stupid energy code that is ineffective at best. Have the people sign an affidavit that they never dimmed their fixture anyway.

 

[Sierrasparky]

Ode never replied.

If I were you, I'd just take it one step at a time. Wait for a nuisance trip to get in a panic; then simply remove the dimmer. IMO, the NEC overrules a stupid energy code that is ineffective at best. Have the people sign an affidavit that they never dimmed their fixture anyway.

Boy George I hope you are just being Funny here as that is a rediculous comment.

The energy code ( title 24 part 6) in CA is as enforceble as the CEC ( Title 24 Part 3) based on the NEC. It is all part of Title 24 of the CA codes.
Today compliance is mandated and the installer signs an affidavit under penalty of perjury that the work was done and what materials where installed with part numbers.

 

[ramsy]

The energy code ( title 24 part 6) in CA is as enforceble as the CEC ( Title 24 Part 3)..

Much changed in 2010, it appears only 100watts max can be counted from dimmers or manual-on motions, Title 24 Part 6, ?150(k), for dwellings. Can someone explain how dimmers replace more than 100W high-efficiency lighting in the CA 2010 Title 24?

 

[George Stolz]

Boy George I hope you are just being Funny here as that is a rediculous comment.

The energy code ( title 24 part 6) in CA is as enforceble as the CEC ( Title 24 Part 3) based on the NEC. It is all part of Title 24 of the CA codes.
Today compliance is mandated and the installer signs an affidavit under penalty of perjury that the work was done and what materials where installed with part numbers.

...And when you roll out on a warranty call six months after CO for a nuisance trip on the AFCI there will be an inspector riding shotgun? :roll:

The inspection will pass in the first place - there is no documentation to fail you for installing the AFCI and the dimmer on the same circuit. For all we know, these second-hand accounts were fabricated in the first place.

What you do after CO is a question for your own conscience. In the grand scheme of things, it's on par with jaywalking, IMO. I think you are very worked up over nothing.

 

[Sierrasparky]

...And when you roll out on a warranty call six months after CO for a nuisance trip on the AFCI there will be an inspector riding shotgun? :roll:

The inspection will pass in the first place - there is no documentation to fail you for installing the AFCI and the dimmer on the same circuit. For all we know, these second-hand accounts were fabricated in the first place.

What you do after CO is a question for your own conscience. In the grand scheme of things, it's on par with jaywalking, IMO. I think you are very worked up over nothing.

I prefer not to have the confrontation of a service call like that, you are crazy to say " is no documentation to fail you for installing the AFCI and the dimmer on the same circuit" You are really nuts and overboard on this. You know that AFCI is required on most every circuit. You are now aware thst High Efficacy or dimmers are required in CA, And yes there is an ispector compliance form that he must fail you if the Energy code is not met.

There was documentation from Mike Holt himself years ago. I am begining to think that You George are being moderated by Mike Holt on this subject.

 

[ELA]

Hello Sierrasparky,

You do seem to be concerned with this issue. I can understand why. You want to do it right the first time and you also have to be competitive with others who may not care.

Can I assume that you have ready access to parts to perform some testing on your own? If you can find the time it could help give you a sense of security for future bids.

Try running several dimmers as parallel loads on the same AFCI breaker. Depending upon the number of dimmers you might have available try 3 to 5 dimmers , each with 300 -350 watts load on them. Make for a total load on the circuit of 900 - 1750 watts (20A circuit).

Very each dimmer from full ON to various dim levels. Try different combinations of intensities on each dimmer. See if you can force the AFCI to trip. Try this with your preferred brand of AFCI that you might have readily available to you. If at all possible try other manufacturers in the same test setup to compare.

The results could help you feel more at ease about future bids/installs. Depending upon the results you might find that you want to avoid certain brands.

I understand that it may be difficult to find the time and/or resources to do this but if you can it may be very worthwhile to you.

 

[Sierrasparky]

I would have done that weeks ago as I do have the spare parts. I just dont have the room to do the set up right now. I don't even know if the short runs in my old home built in the late 50's will be a good simulation. The impedance of the wiring will not be the same as some of the homes built today.

 

[cdcengineer]

Interesting topic. I hadn't heard of this until now. A friend of mine has been telling me of nuisance tripping for months and I wondered what the cause was. I'll review in closer detail the quantity of lights being dimmed. If I understand correctly, it seems as though it's a max of 1000W dimmed per circuit, not per dimmer.

 

[Sierrasparky]

Interesting topic. I hadn't heard of this until now. A friend of mine has been telling me of nuisance tripping for months and I wondered what the cause was. I'll review in closer detail the quantity of lights being dimmed. If I understand correctly, it seems as though it's a max of 1000W dimmed per circuit, not per dimmer.

That is correct

 

[George Stolz]

I prefer not to have the confrontation of a service call like that, you are crazy to say " is no documentation to fail you for installing the AFCI and the dimmer on the same circuit" You are really nuts and overboard on this. You know that AFCI is required on most every circuit. You are now aware thst High Efficacy or dimmers are required in CA, And yes there is an ispector compliance form that he must fail you if the Energy code is not met.

There was documentation from Mike Holt himself years ago. I am begining to think that You George are being moderated by Mike Holt on this subject.

I wash my hands of this nonsense.

 

[Sierrasparky]

I wash my hands of this nonsense.

What ever, Call it nonsense the issue exists and the silence is deafaning.

 

[ELA]

I would have done that weeks ago as I do have the spare parts. I just dont have the room to do the set up right now. I don't even know if the short runs in my old home built in the late 50's will be a good simulation. The impedance of the wiring will not be the same as some of the homes built today.

Please do the test then when you can find the time.
Higher impedance lines are more likely to prevent the breaker from tripping by "smoothing out" or filtering some of the high frequency generated by the dimmer from reaching the AFCI.
The lower the impedance the more worst case the test will be. You don't have to use existing house wiring. Run a short run directly from the service to your test setup.

If you were able to cause false trips you could also then test the add-on coils that Lutron offers to reduce RFI to see if they might help nuisance tripping.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

My suspicion is there are more factors than the 1000 watts. Perhaps under the right conditions 1000 watts may be an issue on dimmer with AFC protection, however I would be surprise if that was always the case. I guess I would try and avoid the situation but it would rare as I have said before.