Square D QO vs Siemens

[nizak]

Looking to get opinions on the use of Square D QO panels vs Siemens brand in commercial applications. I've got several small Sq ft useage areas (individual rooms approx 500 sq ft) that are going to need general lighting and general purpose receps and 1 20A 250volt recep.(6 spaces required). I'm comparing 8 circuit 120/240volt single phase main lug panels and am finding about $65 difference in price between the two brands as well as the difference in breaker costs $3vs $7. Nothing is speced for the electrical so it's up to the EC as to what to use. When I started in the trade about 20 years ago it was always QO in commercial, is this still what most of you's use? Thanks. Also, any thoughts on Cutler Hammer BR series.

 

[John120/240]

IMHO it is Ford vs Chevrolet. SQ D vs Siemens vs CH classic, flip a coin. Where the neutral

bus is situated can make it harder to land new circuits down the road.

 

[augie47]

My experience is that it is like asking which ceral or brand of peanut butter is best.
Some will swear by one brand, others by another.
It seems on most jobs pricing dictates and i don't rcall anyone having to replace a major manufacturers panels over a quality issue.

 

[Cow]

Our shop uses Siemens unless something else is spec'ed. As a rule of thumb, we try to dodge the all aluminum bussed panels, so that takes the Homeline, BR, and some smaller Siemens loadcenters out. I'm sure there are more, those are just the ones I know about. Maybe GE too?

 

[nizak]

Hadn't thought much about the AL buss, you make a good point. Think I'll go with the Siemens and put a little extra profit in my pocket.

 

[jim dungar]

The issue is bare AL versus tin-plated AL.

Tin plated AL bus is not usually a problem for residential load centers. I would not be surprised to find maybe 80-90% of all 100A and smaller load centers are, and have been, AL bus for +30yrs. Also, I don't know of very many meter sockets that use copper bus either.

 

[electricguy61]

IMHO, Square D is the Cadillac, but I use Siemens almost exclusively due to price. I also have a lot less problems with the Siemens AFCI breakers (oops, I don't want to get started on AFCI's :rant

 

[templdl]

Both of the the SqD QO and the C-H CH load centers have Cu bus. The Homeline and BR have Al bus. I'm not familiar with the Seimens product though if it is Cu of Al.

 

[hurk27]

The issue is bare AL versus tin-plated AL.

Tin plated AL bus is not usually a problem for residential load centers. I would not be surprised to find maybe 80-90% of all 100A and smaller load centers are, and have been, AL bus for +30yrs. Also, I don't know of very many meter sockets that use copper bus either.

Actually Siemens as well as major other brands offer aluminum, copper or coper plated aluminum, this has been standard for a while for BR style panel boards including Square D Home Line, but you don't see many places stocking this choice as they stock what sells and cheap sells, but we got away from aluminum buss panels altogether as the failure rate was just too high and is a mess when you have a panel board embedded into a concrete wall with no choice but to re-gut it.

I have never seen a aluminum buss QO panel board, one I had though was after scrapping it with my knife proved to be tin-plated copper.

My experience in panels was T&B was the worst, when they purchased Zinco from Sylvania to make a run into the electrical distribution sector of our industry they found out that the Zinco name was already tarnished so they scrambled to come out with some of the worst panel boards I have ever seen, the neutral bars never had enough terminals for the neutrals or EGC's, I have never seen a copper buss T&B panel offered, the screws that bolted the main to the buss would always strip out not even coming close to their listed torque setting, and it seemed these were always loose when you got them, the KO's would break out all the way no mater how hard you tried just to remove the size you needed which was one of the things that prompted UL to change their standards on KO's, and don't even get me started on T&B's attempt at making meter packs as the same problem of stripping screws that held the busses together and you had to have the utility remove power so you could take it apart to get to the failed connections, but they were cheap and cheap sells:rant:

My second choice for a bad panel was Challenger brand, high buss failure and breaker failure as in wouldn't trip or would trip but not reset, again only seen aluminum busses but not sure if copper was ever offered?

Third I would say has to be the GE but only the half space breakers 30 amps and above, they just didn't have allot of contact area for that kind of amperage and I have seen many failures with these, the Nice thing was GE's always had BR stabs in between each set of half space (2) that allowed an easy fix but maybe not a code compliant one since GE didn't make a full 1" tandem but it would get you out of a jam, I often wondered if they did this with the intention of this failure in mind as no other manufacture had any kind of set up like this.

Then comes ITE/Siemens but only the aluminum buss versions, when panel was installed in a high moisture environment couldn't really fault them for this as high moisture environment should only get copper or copper plated busses other wise plenty of neutral bar terminals and over all not a bad panel but could have used a little more spring clamping on the buss which was a problem with the breaker stabs and the buss stabs seemed a little thin when compared to the SD Homelines but if you ordered the copper buss version you might as well install a QO panel as they were pricey when compared to the aluminum buss version.

Forgot all about Cutler Hammer which was not a common brand around here until City Electric Supply move into the area as that is their main brand, so I don't have much experience with them other then to say their classified panel gut retro fit kits were a life saver for the concrete embedded Siemens panels with the burned busses but did take some modifications to get it to fit properly, not a good thing as I had allot of time involved but was about the only choice I had given that Siemens had discontinued the 200 amp panels with the 4 stacked breakers as the main, any other type of panel mounting would have made it much better just to install a new complete panel, their BR series looks just like most other BR styled panels, but the CH style looks like the buss clips could be a failure problem like the GE half space as they don't look like they have enough contact area for higher amperages breakers, but I haven't took the chance to find out and haven't run into any in the field to say one way or the other so the jury is still out on them for me.

Well Square D Homeline panels what can I say, their buss stabs were much thicker the breaker stab spring grip much stronger clamping, and after they got away from the stacked neutral bar at the top always had plenty of neutral terminals, but one thing never made any sense to me, if you got a main breaker panel it came with the separate grounding bars factory mounted in them, but if you got a main lug panel they didn't, now tell me if that is not backward, and they were one of only a few that did not allow you to remove the jumper bar between the two sides to allow one side to be used as a ground bar and the other as the neutral bar, the MBJ screw was in the middle of this bar and even if you did manage to cut and twist this bar out of it, you no longer had a place to install the MBJ screw, but all in all they were very competitive in price for all the other brands, and I have never had a breaker to buss fail at the stab, so for the last 10 years this has been my choice when possible, the other thing is most places only stock the copper plated buss type, although I have seen a few aluminum ones and only a couple copper buss ones for high corrosion areas, I still have better results with the Homelines, and I still use the QO's for many commercial installs unless I need a high AIC or have many heavy loads which I use bolt it breaker panelboards.

ok now that I have given my opinion which is all that it is, have at it.:lol:

 

[jim dungar]

I have never seen a aluminum buss QO panel board, one I had though was after scrapping it with my knife proved to be tin-plated copper.

Note, I specifically said load centers 100A and smaller. I don't believe you have ever seen a QO816L100 with anything except tin-plated aluminum

 

[hurk27]

Note, I specifically said load centers 100A and smaller. I don't believe you have ever seen a QO816L100 with anything except tin-plated aluminum

Really, Wow they had me fooled, I do think the one I scratch the buss to see what it was, was a 150 amp QO 24 space compact space panel, I think it was 3-phase, never knew you can tin plate aluminum, I always thought that is why we see copper plated aluminum so I guess I just assumed it was tin plated copper, thanks now I know:thumbsup:

 

[templdl]

I guess I may be confused as this is Squares D's description of their QO panal through 400a which doesn't refer to aluminum. I'm pro C-H CH loadcenters but am just as impressed with the QO. This is straight from the SqD Web page:


The QO load center and circuit breaker family is designed to satisfy individual requirements with a comprehensive selection:

?Single and three phase
?30 to 400 amps 2 to 42 circuits
?Indoor and outdoor versions
?Separate flush or surface mount covers
?Full complement of accessories
Features
?New - Backed Out Neutral Screws save labor and installation time... more information
?Exclusive shielded copper bus features electro tin plated copper bus bars sandwiched between two rugged polymer shields to insulate and secure the interior.
?Straight-in mains wiring and uniform termination lugs help minimize service cable bends, cutting waste and saving installation time.
?Convertible mains allow fast field conversion between main breaker and main lugs to meet changing job requirements.
?Standard 22,000/10,000 ampere series short circuit current rating on main breaker load centers provides increased application capability.
?QO three-phase main circuit breaker panels can be field upgraded to provide 100,000A short circuit current ratings.
?Single, captive interior mounting screw can't be lost.Interior mounts quickly and can easily be removed during rough-in for paint or theft protection.
?Split branch neutral with up to 50% more terminations than UL requirement -- simplifies wiring and reduces clutter.
?Indoor enclosures designed to rotate 180 degrees to accommodate top or bottom service entrance feed, saving expensive service cable.
?Combination slot/square-drive neutral, ground, and cover screw accommodate both standard flat blade screwdrivers and square-head drivers. Three ground bar mounting locations (left, right, and end) make it easier to wire.

 

[templdl]

I copied this from the Seimens web sight. Please note that is is easy to dids=stiguish a SqD QO and a C-H CH load center but it is important to spell out if it is a PL or ES series Seimens panel as shown below:

PL Series Load Centers? Features
Convertible

Invertible

Insta-wire neutrals & grounds

Ground bars included factory installed

Copper bus bars

Dual neutrals on all configurations

Carton-in-carton packaging

Lifetime warranty


ES Series Load Centers? Features
Invertible

Insta-wire neutrals & grounds

Aluminum bus bars

Single sided neutral on 24 circuits and below

Single piece carton packaging

10 year warranty

 

[kwired]

Note, I specifically said load centers 100A and smaller. I don't believe you have ever seen a QO816L100 with anything except tin-plated aluminum

I can't recall seeing one with copper bus but there is listing for one in catalog. Add CU to the end of catalog number.

 

[hurk27]

I know that over the years with Siemens I have installed all three aluminum was the most common, but we ordered copper buss, and I have even installed a few copper plated aluminum buss bars, I never quoted the panel model numbers but just told my sales man what I wanted and he put it together,I know Menard's has the Cu plated aluminum version Siemens as I was looking at them about a month ago at least here in this area.

 

[hurk27]

H'mm maybe I was mistakin on the coper plated aluminum at Menard's as I went a search Siemens website and they no longer offer it, but the copper buss bars has the same pinkish look that I saw at Menard's and it is also the same pinkish looking bars that the older Siemens panels had with the CUpl-AL that I have ordered in the past, I havent installed a Siemens load center in over 12 years ever since a local supplyer who handled them closed down back in 1999 but even them we had already started to use Homelines except a brief venture with thos nasty T&B panels and meter packs. I did notice that Siemens does offer a tin plated copper buss bar panel in a 255 amp load center but I think it was a bolt in breaker panel.

 

[jim dungar]

Really, Wow they had me fooled, I do think the one I scratch the buss to see what it was, was a 150 amp QO 24 space compact space panel, I think it was 3-phase, never knew you can tin plate aluminum, I always thought that is why we see copper plated aluminum so I guess I just assumed it was tin plated copper, thanks now I know:thumbsup:

From Schneider Electric's FAQ pages:
http://www.schneider-electric.us/sites/us/en/support/faq/faq_main.page
[h=1]Does the QO816L100S load center have copper bus?[/h] No, this load center uses tin plated aluminum bus.


My intent was to point out the choice of a bus bar material only, does not take into account the engineering design and manufacturing quality of products, which in my opinion is much more important.
I am pretty sure most people have no idea how much aluminum is found the products they purchase. When I worked for an electrical distributor, by far and away, the most common lugs we sold were tin-plated aluminum (at least a 20:1 ratio). It is amazing how many electricians hate engineered aluminum bus bar, but have no problem with field installed aluminum connectors.

 

[kwired]

From Schneider Electric's FAQ pages:
http://www.schneider-electric.us/sites/us/en/support/faq/faq_main.page
Does the QO816L100S load center have copper bus?

No, this load center uses tin plated aluminum bus.


My intent was to point out the choice of a bus bar material only, does not take into account the engineering design and manufacturing quality of products, which in my opinion is much more important.
I am pretty sure most people have no idea how much aluminum is found the products they purchase. When I worked for an electrical distributor, by far and away, the most common lugs we sold were tin-plated aluminum (at least a 20:1 ratio). It is amazing how many electricians hate engineered aluminum bus bar, but have no problem with field installed aluminum connectors.

Aside from the 6 and 8 space panels most of the rest of QO line is tin plated copper.

I have not had any trouble with the aluminum 6 and 8 space buses, they are probably a good engineered product.

Now go to the NF series (277/480 volt) panelboards and they are offered in both copper and aluminum bus. I have never actually seen a copper bus - the standard is aluminum and you definately pay more for copper. Never had a problem with one of these buses either.

Some older miniature style panelboards with aluminum bus had issues - I think there is better alloys used today and tin plating probably makes a big difference too.

 

[brantmacga]

in terms of long-term quality and durability, i rank them in this order:

Square D
Siemens
Cutler-Hammer



We have a customer that we do service for on existing locations, and also do the electrical construction on their new facilities. All locations are identical except the elec equipment varies. The C-H equipment just can't take the abuse of 24hr/365day loads this customer puts on them. I've seen C-H breakers melt down on the buss, where a SquareD never has any problems. I can't count how many of the miniature C-H breakers i've replaced over the past couple of years. Just replaced a C-H panelboard last week where the buss bars were deformed and colored from the constant 90A load on a 225A buss bar. It was probably 25 years old; again, the square D equipment never blinks and eye serving the same purpose.

The locations with siemens equipment doesn't have as many problems as those w/ CH, but the siemens breakers fail more regulary than square D. The biggest problem I have w/ siemens are the lugs on their miniature circuit breakers. They come loose more easily, and strip out more easily being tightened. 90% of the siemens breakers i replace are lug issues.


anyhow, that just my experience with all three. i'd say we have a pretty good test-bed for making these comparisons with everything being the same at each location.

also, none of what i listed above applies to large-frame circuit breakers.