outlets and GFI's without ground

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howardrichman

Senior Member
I'm working on old house that needs a c-o inspection. Most outlet locations are without grounds and previous owner installed new 3 prong devices and GFI's in kitchen and baths. I replaced all 3 prong ungrounded outlets with 2 prong devices, but not sure if the GFI's are adaquate in the baths and kitchen w/o grounds. The c/o Inspector will probably use a standard GFI tester to short the ground to nuetral test, and would fail the inspection. I had thought a GFI device was permissable if no ground was available. Please clarify.

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HR...
 

KVA

Senior Member
Location
United States
I'm working on old house that needs a c-o inspection. Most outlet locations are without grounds and previous owner installed new 3 prong devices and GFI's in kitchen and baths. I replaced all 3 prong ungrounded outlets with 2 prong devices, but not sure if the GFI's are adaquate in the baths and kitchen w/o grounds. The c/o Inspector will probably use a standard GFI tester to short the ground to nuetral test, and would fail the inspection. I had thought a GFI device was permissable if no ground was available. Please clarify.

Please reply
HR...

Yes GFI's are fine without ground you just have to put a label that says "no equipment ground" on the face.
 

dana1028

Senior Member
406.3(D) are the general rules for replacing 2-prong receptacles. The test button on the GFCI is the correct way to test GFCIs...depending on the mfr., the inspector's tester may not work.

Note - the GFCI is not acceptable to to achieve a ground when no ground is present...it is acceptable if no ground is required. See 250.114 for those locations that actually do require a ground.
 

howardrichman

Senior Member
406.3(D) are the general rules for replacing 2-prong receptacles. The test button on the GFCI is the correct way to test GFCIs...depending on the mfr., the inspector's tester may not work.
Note - the GFCI is not acceptable to to achieve a ground when no ground is present...it is acceptable if no ground is required. See 250.114 for those locations that actually do require a ground.


The devices test button is not used by inspectors. They all use the device that shorts the ground to nuetral(3 prong tester w/button) even if permisable. I'll put in the stickers, and notify the inspector of the situation 1st.
HR...
 

hurk27

Senior Member
Depends on which panel you listen to. ;)

I agree as this one has come up a few times at IAEI sectionals, the whole reason of the allowance of using GFCI's is to make an existing install safer without overly requiring circuits to be rewired that could get very costly if wall surface has to be removed, this goes back to grandfather laws.

A GFCI does not create a ground, it puts a safety trip in place if a person using a faulted appliance makes a connection to a alternate path back to source including Earth, it does not need an EGC to preform this function this is the simple "bird on a wire theory" if no other paths exist then there is no shock hazard.

The only UL listed method of testing a GFCI is the test button on the device, the same goes for AFCI's

in 406.3(D) there is no wording that says one type of load is exempt while another still requires an EGC, the very exceptions to 250.114 opens the door as to cause a problem with enforcement as it depends upon what type of appliance is plugged in, how can you enforce something that may not even be on site.

If 406.3(D) doesn't give allowances to 250.114 then where does it give allowances to any other receptacle required to have an EGC? it only say's where a equipment ground does not exist you may install a GFCI receptacle or 3 prong receptacles protected by a GFCI marked with "no equipment ground"

I remember what was said at one of the IAEI sectionals, that the reason many would rather see GFCI's is it allows a 3-prong receptacle to still be used that would eliminate the persons who would otherwise cut the ground prong off leaving the appliance without a ground even when it is plugged in to a grounded receptacle.
 

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
The rule for replacement receptacles was in the past in Article 250 and it read the same as it does now with no relief from 250.114, so even when the same panel had both sections, there was still a conflict.
 
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