Separate structures, disconnects, electrodes & panels oh my!

[iwire]

Here is an installation I planed and had installed.

There are two - 30 amp, single phase, 208 volt circuits and three - 20 amp, 125 volt circuits.

There are no disconnecting means.

There are no grounding electrodes.

There are five branch circuits.


How many code sections have I violated?

 

[mike7330]

looks like the lower cowboy was to big?

 

[iwire]

looks like the lower cowboy was to big?

So was the section of PT plywood, I was not that pleased with the quality of the work. I had planed and started the job but the shop sent two guys to finish while I was on vacation.

 

[mike7330]

So was the section of PT plywood, I was not that pleased with the quality of the work. I had planed and started the job but the shop sent two guys to finish while I was on vacation.

I have seen a lot worse! Maybe your guys left the pt plywood high, so you can advertise?? Just a thought.

 

[hurk27]

I think you already know that I will say in this case as installed in the photo, that no disconnect is required, now let me back that point:

While I agree that 225.31 states "that supply or
pass through the building or structure" I feel that the wood post and mounting boards are the structure not the electrical equipment, no conductors supply or pass through the structure, this is in-line with what 230.70 states where only conductors that "enter" a structure are required to have a disconnect.

To further this point of view we need to look at 225.32 last sentence:

For the purposes of this section, the requirements
in 230.6 shall be utilized.

which in 230.6 which clearly says these conductors are outside of the structure.

If we look at every exception to this requirement, each exception is for installations where conductors "enter" the structure.

I'm of the opinion that the code has never required a disconnect if the conductors do not enter a structure and are located "outside" the same.

Of course it is only an opinion

Of course the equipment will require disconnects as in 422, but the receptacles will serve that purpose.

 

[hurk27]

To add to the above on the point of a Grounding electrode:

250.32 states:

Building(s) or structure(s) suppliedby feeder(s) or branch circuit(s)

I stopped at "supplied" because I don't see where the wooden post is "supplied" so in this same point of view no GES is required.

 

[iwire]

I think you already know that I will say in this case as installed in the photo, that no disconnect is required, now let me back that point:


While I agree that 225.31 states "that supply or
pass through the building or structure" I feel that the wood post and mounting boards are the structure not the electrical equipment, no conductors supply or pass through the structure, this is in-line with what 230.70 states where only conductors that "enter" a structure are required to have a disconnect.

With that interpretation that section would not apply at any time.

I'm of the opinion that the code has never required a disconnect if the conductors do not enter a structure and are located "outside" the same.

I think that is just a convent way of looking at it, I really do not see that spelled out clearly in the code.

If I built a dog house around this would you then say it needed a disconnect?

 

[iwire]

To add to the above on the point of a Grounding electrode:

250.32 states:


I stopped at "supplied" because I don't see where the wooden post is "supplied" so in this same point of view no GES is required.

It seems as 'supplied' as a shed with a receptacle on the outside of it.

 

[hurk27]

It seems as 'supplied' as a shed with a receptacle on the outside of it.

I guess the problem I have is with the word "supplied"

to me if you are supplying a structure it has to have a load that is supplied to make any sense, if that dog house had a light in it or maybe be a heater then we can see we are supplying a load, but if there is no load on or in the structure then what are we supplying?, if we just install a receptacle that is supplying a load not located on or in the structure are we supplying the structure?

With a light standard or sign pole we are supplying loads in or on that structure so explains the need for the exception.

 

[hurk27]

I guess I should expand upon why I bring up the point above:

many of us would agree that in the above installation that either a disconnect or a grounding electrode system would serve no purpose, we can also understand that where conductors enter a building or serve loads on a structure a disconnect would be a benefit to those working on these loads, now I'm only trying to point out that it is possible that many have interpreted the above requirements to include structures that do not have any loads "supplied" that would require such a disconnect or a GES.

We could say that it has been interpreted this way for 50 years, but we could also say it has been interpreted wrong for 50 years? if we look at what we think a requirement would achieve we can see something is wrong with this interpretation? so this is why when I see this I try to think out of the box to find what is really required and if it is then why? as you can see this one has no good reason to be required as it provides no extra safety that is not required in other areas of installation. if one circuit is safe without a disconnect then why is two not? if one circuit is safe with out a GES then why is two not?

 

[zbang]

As an absurdly small example:

I know that doesn't have a GES or disconnect. Since the 'structure' is a 4x4 maybe 10" high above grade, there isn't much of it to be supplied .

Requiring a GES for things like an outlet in a flower bed seems way over the top (and nobody does it, either). This'll give me some interesting code reading in the next couple of days.

 

[Cow]

Disregarding everything else, how are those nipples waterproofed going into the top of that box? I don't see any myer's hubs? Maybe sealing washers?

 

[hurk27]

Disregarding everything else, how are those nipples waterproofed going into the top of that box? I don't see any myer's hubs? Maybe sealing washers?

Does the main J box have threaded hub's?

Are the receptacle covers design to close while in-use?

Why are there two differant size one-hole clamps on the in-comming 1 1/4" conduit in the bottom?

How are the two side box's sealed between the J-box?

Are the plug cords direct buiral rated?
(see the two cords running into the ground at the bottom of photo)

 

[hurk27]

disregard the last one in the post above as after enlarging the photo I see it is just bent over and continues

 

[hurk27]

Why does this look like a temporary installation at some kind of event, like a beer tent?

 

[jaylectricity]

Here is an installation I planed and had installed.

How many code sections have I violated?

I'm gonna go with spelling. Unless you designed that setup to look like a plane. Which it sort of does, so...*scratches head*

 

[iwire]

Why does this look like a temporary installation at some kind of event, like a beer tent?

Not beer, frozen alcohol drinks at an outdoor concert venue.

The post and outlets are permenant, the tent and machines are in place from June till September.

 

[hurk27]

A'hhh not to far off

 

[iwire]

A'hhh not to far off

They already had dozens of beer locations.

We went in and added eight frozzen drink machines at four locations around the grounds.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comcast_Center_(amphitheatre)

 

[hurk27]

A'hhh been awhile since my concert days.

Bet you had to test those frozzen drink machines too, I mean you have to make sure they work:lol: