Sub panel bonding from 1000 amp service with remote metering.

[Fordean]

View attachment Service.pdfHave question in drawing. Any additional questions or answers let me know.
Utility company insisted in moving this meter away from service. Instead of closer. Now bonding questions on subpanel install..

 

[kwired]

What exactly is your question? The 400 amp fusible switch is the service disconnect. Grounded service conductor is to be bonded to equipment grounding conductor there and they are to be separate at all points beyond that.

Everything on the supply side of the 400 amp switch is service equipment and is required to be bonded to the service grounded conductor. Where the location of metering equipment is makes no difference.

 

[infinity]

I'm not sure that I understand this setup. Are there two sets of SEC's coming from the meter?

 

[kwired]

I'm not sure that I understand this setup. Are there two sets of SEC's coming from the meter?

I don't think so, looks like all that is being done is to move the metering equipment to other end of existing lateral.

ADD: Take back most of what I said until we clarify what the 200 amp 42 circuit panel is at the new meter location - I somehow missed that before.

 

[augie47]

Potential violation of 230.72(A) ?

 

[Fordean]

What exactly is your question? The 400 amp fusible switch is the service disconnect. Grounded service conductor is to be bonded to equipment grounding conductor there and they are to be separate at all points beyond that.

Everything on the supply side of the 400 amp switch is service equipment and is required to be bonded to the service grounded conductor. Where the location of metering equipment is makes no difference.

Yes it is still a disconnect but meter is remote. I have a #4 ground passing thru meter. Meter socket is bonded to neutral. # 4 ground is not terminated in this meter it goes from panel back to 400 amp switch (refused to 200).
Had complaints at one time of running ground wire thru meter by utilities. Neutral from panel goes to meter socket where it is bonded, to metal. Ground wire I am passing thru without terminating at meter just panel back to
switch gear. Only grounding at meter is with the neutral since there is pvc on both sides. Is meter neutral to housing ok. I know it is hard to explain. Trying my best, Thanks for insight.

 

[Fordean]

I don't think so, looks like all that is being done is to move the metering equipment to other end of existing lateral.

ADD: Take back most of what I said until we clarify what the 200 amp 42 circuit panel is at the new meter location - I somehow missed that before.

200 amp panel is next to meter on interior. Meter is out side. Meter and panel 60 feet away from Grounding node in service gear. Trying to keep neutral and ground separate. But meter is bonded to casing. That why I am
running ground unterminated. Back to switch gear. A little confused. Didn't want to do this away but Public service insisted. I know he was wrong didn't need to do this. But I humored him.

 

[Fordean]

I'm not sure that I understand this setup. Are there two sets of SEC's coming from the meter?

there is 3 # 3/0 wag 1 - 3/0 Neutral , 1 - #4 ground. From panel back to 400 amp switch. Problem in keeping ground in neutral separate all the way back to switch. Neutral is bonded naturally at meter. So I did not connect ground there at all. Went ground from panel back to switch gear. Panel neural to meter, (where it is bonded to casing, then back to switch gear.

 

[kwired]

Is all this in or on same building or structure? I am getting the impression it is. If so is it single occupant or multi occupant, or is there sufficient fire walls to technically call it two buildings?

If it is same building you have more than one service to that building as is 230.2 would be the section violated. If you want to argue it is only one service it can still have six disconnects but they must be grouped together 230.72.

 

[Fordean]

Is all this in or on same building or structure? I am getting the impression it is. If so is it single occupant or multi occupant, or is there sufficient fire walls to technically call it two buildings?

If it is same building you have more than one service to that building as is 230.2 would be the section violated. If you want to argue it is only one service it can still have six disconnects but they must be grouped together 230.72.

Curious if drawing above came in visible to all. Service is on north side of strip mall. Their is 10 units approx. service as viewed in drawing is together with a added ct which was existing. Only thing down field is the Meter and sub panel. Just curious on the Meter being bonded to casing of meter pan. I am running ground right thru meter without termination direct to Loadcenter. I did not bond ground to meter pan. For it would not be isolated all the way back to service. Where does the ground and neutral being separated end must go to service. Correct ? Or is their another way Please view drawing, still not sure here.

 

[kwired]

Curious if drawing above came in visible to all. Service is on north side of strip mall. Their is 10 units approx. service as viewed in drawing is together with a added ct which was existing. Only thing down field is the Meter and sub panel. Just curious on the Meter being bonded to casing of meter pan. I am running ground right thru meter without termination direct to Loadcenter. I did not bond ground to meter pan. For it would not be isolated all the way back to service. Where does the ground and neutral being separated end must go to service. Correct ? Or is their another way Please view drawing, still not sure here.

Since the drawing is a PDF it is not viewable in the forum but is an attachment that can be opened separately.


The thing that is not clear in the drawing is the locations of equipment drawn, and what is being supplied, as well as any details of same or separate buildings or structures. This information can change a lot of things that may or may not be allowed.

I am seeing on the left a meter supplying a 200 amp panel with main - likely located near the meter, this would be one service. Then from same meter another supply to a 400 amp switch (with the old meter location used as a junction box), and likely some distance from the meter but do not know if it is even part of same building. This would be a second service. If both services are on same building or structure it is likely violation of either 230.2 or 230.72.
If it is separate buildings it may be just fine, and if so it is service equipment and equipment grounding conductors are not needed until past the service disconnecting means.

 

[kwired]

Is the reason for the changes because an additional tenant was added to the strip mall?

Is the first meter measuring power used by everything or just by the 42 circuit panel? It looks like there is a meter center supplied by the 400 amp disconnect.

Service equipment does not end until you hit a disconnect with overcurrent protection. Service equipment is bonded to the grounded conductor (neutral in most cases).

 

[Fordean]

Is the reason for the changes because an additional tenant was added to the strip mall?

Is the first meter measuring power used by everything or just by the 42 circuit panel? It looks like there is a meter center supplied by the 400 amp disconnect.

Service equipment does not end until you hit a disconnect with overcurrent protection. Service equipment is bonded to the grounded conductor (neutral in most cases).

Thanks for response I understand for clarity I will need to provide more info as asked. The Meter socket above CT (Now Junction Box) is blanked off (for future) This is a shell fit out for future tenant of unknown. If the perhaps open a restaurant they can some what easily convert back to 400 amp since ct and stop is there. Meter and panel to left are now served from this 400 amp setup which is now refused at safety switch (200 amp)fused. Building is one building with strip mall type tenanting. Main service is still the 1200amp to right which the Ct and equipment was existing. We just removed ct.'s and blanked off meter. For future if needed. THen move the new meter and Loadcenter to Building Tenant spacing penetration. Per Utility request to move meter over there. I just curious on keeping ground and neutral now separate back to main service. Meter neutral is bonded to case. It is only grounded by this means since there is pvc on both incoming from service and pvc from meter to Loadcenter. Basically isolating it. I Ran Ground right thru meter to Loadcenter back to service. Neutral is now separate. from ground.

 

[kwired]

Thanks for response I understand for clarity I will need to provide more info as asked. The Meter socket above CT (Now Junction Box) is blanked off (for future) This is a shell fit out for future tenant of unknown. If the perhaps open a restaurant they can some what easily convert back to 400 amp since ct and stop is there. Meter and panel to left are now served from this 400 amp setup which is now refused at safety switch (200 amp)fused. Building is one building with strip mall type tenanting. Main service is still the 1200amp to right which the Ct and equipment was existing. We just removed ct.'s and blanked off meter. For future if needed. THen move the new meter and Loadcenter to Building Tenant spacing penetration. Per Utility request to move meter over there. I just curious on keeping ground and neutral now separate back to main service. Meter neutral is bonded to case. It is only grounded by this means since there is pvc on both incoming from service and pvc from meter to Loadcenter. Basically isolating it. I Ran Ground right thru meter to Loadcenter back to service. Neutral is now separate. from ground.

You have cleared a lot of misunderstanding from my part, for some reason I was seeing the supply as coming from the left and feeding everything on the right.

Most of what I previously said can be disregarded as this is not service equipment like I thougt it was. The only real issue is what you have been saying you are concerned with - bonding of the neutral in the meter socket when it is not service equipment.

2 questions.

Does the meter have a 7th jaw for neutral? If not run neutral straight through and then it will not have a bond to can.

Why can't meter be located where the other distribution equipment is (like it apparently once was)? 250.142(B) exception 2 would permit bonding the meter socket to the grounded circuit conductor if located immediately adjacent to service disconnecting means. In this case depending on AHJ interpretation may mean on supply side of the 400 amp switch though.

 

[Fordean]

You have cleared a lot of misunderstanding from my part, for some reason I was seeing the supply as coming from the left and feeding everything on the right.

Most of what I previously said can be disregarded as this is not service equipment like I thougt it was. The only real issue is what you have been saying you are concerned with - bonding of the neutral in the meter socket when it is not service equipment.

2 questions.

Does the meter have a 7th jaw for neutral? If not run neutral straight through and then it will not have a bond to can.

Why can't meter be located where the other distribution equipment is (like it apparently once was)? 250.142(B) exception 2 would permit bonding the meter socket to the grounded circuit conductor if located immediately adjacent to service disconnecting means. In this case depending on AHJ interpretation may mean on supply side of the 400 amp switch though.

I have to check whether it had the 7th jaw. I don't believe so. Also meter designation was Utility engineer. I don't know why I could have easily keep it by Ct cabinet. I could not get him to understand at the point of job meeting. Now he will see. Hope he don't complain now of the Ground running thru it. Don't think he understood this was sub panel. Don't know why.

 

[kwired]

I have to check whether it had the 7th jaw. I don't believe so. Also meter designation was Utility engineer. I don't know why I could have easily keep it by Ct cabinet. I could not get him to understand at the point of job meeting. Now he will see. Hope he don't complain now of the Ground running thru it. Don't think he understood this was sub panel. Don't know why.

Most POCO would normally not want that much unmetered conductors at the site, especially past a disconnecting point.
Gives customer more opportunities to get free power - whether intentional or not.