If I get hurt, would I be under his insurance unless stated otherwise? Also I'm think of having him sign a contract saying: He provides time cards, both sign in the morning, and when I leave daily. Can walk away from job at anytime for any reason, and will be paid for the hours worked that week. Anything else I should state? I'm sure I'm missing some things!:roll: Thank you for your help.
Entering a T&M contract have questions please.
- Thread starter zappy
- Start date
- Status
- Location
- Chapel Hill, NC
- Occupation
- Retired Electrical Contractor
Zappy you are an electrical contractor. If you work T & M then it is your insurance not theirs. If you work for them on their payroll that is a different issue.
jaylectricity
Senior Member
- Location
- Massachusetts
- Occupation
- licensed journeyman electrician
To expound on Dennis's point...if you work for him and he handles the business, taxes, etc it's his responsibility. But if you're charging him for your time it's your business.
I'm so fed up with T&M that I try my hardest to either bid, or quote a job. And for residential service work I'm going to flat rate. Here's why;
First and foremost these items always happen AFTER most or all of the job is done! Now you have to fight to get paid!
The bigger the job is the more you are scrutinized for everything! You will have to defend your every movement. I can't stress this enough!
You end up getting accused of going slow on purpose.
They want you to justify every parts cost, and will not pay for those left overs. You get to go and return them on your own time!
You end up fighting over time doing things like layout, getting parts, and how long it all takes.
They call around to compare you to others, and always find someone who says he could have done it in less time.
They don't want to pay for, going to the bathroom, answering the phone, a quick coffee, reading the instructions, etc.
Also, It guarantees that you will not make any profit. You are punished for having all the best tools and training, and are quick, because instead of being rewarded for working really hard and fast you get paid less. How is that fair?
If a device you provided fails you still have to come back and fix it for no extra money. Your markup is supposed to be your insurance policy to pay you for those times it happens.
Need I go on?
Rick
First and foremost these items always happen AFTER most or all of the job is done! Now you have to fight to get paid!
The bigger the job is the more you are scrutinized for everything! You will have to defend your every movement. I can't stress this enough!
You end up getting accused of going slow on purpose.
They want you to justify every parts cost, and will not pay for those left overs. You get to go and return them on your own time!
You end up fighting over time doing things like layout, getting parts, and how long it all takes.
They call around to compare you to others, and always find someone who says he could have done it in less time.
They don't want to pay for, going to the bathroom, answering the phone, a quick coffee, reading the instructions, etc.
Also, It guarantees that you will not make any profit. You are punished for having all the best tools and training, and are quick, because instead of being rewarded for working really hard and fast you get paid less. How is that fair?
If a device you provided fails you still have to come back and fix it for no extra money. Your markup is supposed to be your insurance policy to pay you for those times it happens.
Need I go on?
Rick
GUNNING
Senior Member
- Location
- Gainesville, Florida
With T&M the better you are the less you make and the more worn out your tools get.
I know how much it will cost me to do a job. How long, how much the materials are, how long it will take to set up, and how Im going to get paid in the end.
What I get when I don't do T&M is the con artist. The guy that says his GFCI is broke and can I come and fix it. I give him a flat rate for changing out a GFCI receptacle over the phone and it turns out it is to the hot tub or a control in the hot tub panel, or the whole panel is shot or maybe just the buss etc. This is known, of course, because I am not the first one out there and he has beaten up on the "A" thru "G"'s so far.
Im thinking about giving out a special number for craigslist shoppers. When that special phone number rings, telling them its a flat rate of $ for the trip charge and estimate, GET THE CREDIT CARD NUMBER RIGHT THEN AND THERE, then I get paid first for flat rating them. Putting the horse before the cart so to speak. Give them a "special rate" if they sign up and pay upfront for the job right then and there, otherwise ....
You know you are in trouble when they ask if you have a hack saw because they know just what needs to be done (actual conversation). T&M becomes a nightmare and flat rate is going to be a free trip to an argument.
There are pit falls when you negotiate. You can phrase things like "It shouldn't cost more than $" but not less than $. It's all in the sales talk and focus. Something I'm guilty of not doing enough of. What ever you do get it in writing. That's why they call us Electrical contractors.
I know how much it will cost me to do a job. How long, how much the materials are, how long it will take to set up, and how Im going to get paid in the end.
What I get when I don't do T&M is the con artist. The guy that says his GFCI is broke and can I come and fix it. I give him a flat rate for changing out a GFCI receptacle over the phone and it turns out it is to the hot tub or a control in the hot tub panel, or the whole panel is shot or maybe just the buss etc. This is known, of course, because I am not the first one out there and he has beaten up on the "A" thru "G"'s so far.
Im thinking about giving out a special number for craigslist shoppers. When that special phone number rings, telling them its a flat rate of $ for the trip charge and estimate, GET THE CREDIT CARD NUMBER RIGHT THEN AND THERE, then I get paid first for flat rating them. Putting the horse before the cart so to speak. Give them a "special rate" if they sign up and pay upfront for the job right then and there, otherwise ....
You know you are in trouble when they ask if you have a hack saw because they know just what needs to be done (actual conversation). T&M becomes a nightmare and flat rate is going to be a free trip to an argument.
There are pit falls when you negotiate. You can phrase things like "It shouldn't cost more than $" but not less than $. It's all in the sales talk and focus. Something I'm guilty of not doing enough of. What ever you do get it in writing. That's why they call us Electrical contractors.
If you're not filling out a W-4 form for this job you're on your own if you get hurt. If this is a contract you cannot just walk away from it because you feel like it.
sd4524
Senior Member
- Location
- Southern California
We don't know whats in the contract so we don't know what is missing. This contract could be a page long or 100 pages long. It could be for your weekend fishing buddy or for a billion dollar corporation. I hope its a sweet gig and you make good money. Time card that you punch in and out... that means no compensation for travel or admin... just saying. Do you punch out when you get a phone call? I don't know enough about the deal but a timecard like that is asking for trouble.
No matter what contract you write, it has to follow some basic contract law, if it does not comply to the basic format, it is most likely a useless document,
for example when a party ask for something they have to give something, the scales of justice, and the laws they have to balance.
for example when a party ask for something they have to give something, the scales of justice, and the laws they have to balance.
That may work is some cases, but would fly with many states where consumer protection laws require a written contract for jobs that meet a set dollar amount.
petersonra
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern illinois
- Occupation
- engineer
T&M would seem to imply you are working as a subcontractor to someone else, so anything beyond what you are being paid for your time is on you.
This is actually the norm for many things.
I would caution that up front you should have a clear agreement on just how both the "T" and the "M" part will work.
For instance suppose you agree to $50 an hour. Is it $50 an hour if you work 40 hours a week? How about 80 hours in a week? How about weekends and holidays?
As for materials, most of the time it is expected that an electrical contractor would supply incidental materials such as small quantities of wire nuts, fasteners, and electrical tape as part of the hourly rate. You should also be cautious about agreeing to buy parts and billing him for them. You could get stuck holding the bag. You should also be cautious about how much markup he is going to allow on materials, if any, and what documentation he is going to require for payment.
You might want to make clear just what your role is in the whole arrangement as well. Are you there to do a specific task such as wiring up something that is already there or do you have to go buy it and being it back? If you have to go get stuff, that time should be chargable. That kind of thing needs to be understood by both parties up front.
You also need to come up with some way that the contractor approves whatever materials you end up supplying - both the actual parts and the cost. It will be real unpleasent to do so after you already spent the money and installed the stuff.
There also needs to be clear understanding of just when payment is due. If you are used to a pay check every week, it will be a major shock to the system to find that a lot of contractors are very slow to pay. Sometimes multiple months are involved before you may see a check.
This is actually the norm for many things.
I would caution that up front you should have a clear agreement on just how both the "T" and the "M" part will work.
For instance suppose you agree to $50 an hour. Is it $50 an hour if you work 40 hours a week? How about 80 hours in a week? How about weekends and holidays?
As for materials, most of the time it is expected that an electrical contractor would supply incidental materials such as small quantities of wire nuts, fasteners, and electrical tape as part of the hourly rate. You should also be cautious about agreeing to buy parts and billing him for them. You could get stuck holding the bag. You should also be cautious about how much markup he is going to allow on materials, if any, and what documentation he is going to require for payment.
You might want to make clear just what your role is in the whole arrangement as well. Are you there to do a specific task such as wiring up something that is already there or do you have to go buy it and being it back? If you have to go get stuff, that time should be chargable. That kind of thing needs to be understood by both parties up front.
You also need to come up with some way that the contractor approves whatever materials you end up supplying - both the actual parts and the cost. It will be real unpleasent to do so after you already spent the money and installed the stuff.
There also needs to be clear understanding of just when payment is due. If you are used to a pay check every week, it will be a major shock to the system to find that a lot of contractors are very slow to pay. Sometimes multiple months are involved before you may see a check.
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Workman's Comp????? I work by myself and there fore am not required to carry workman's compensation.....however, if I work as a sub.....I'm kinda his employee and would have to be covered by a comp policy. So he would have to pay on his comp. if I choose not to get it. Also if I subbed someone.....I would need to see that they have comp. or I would be responsible if they didn't have it..
Just throwing that out there............
Blood sucking ins. companies.
Just wanted to clarify.........if you did not have comp. and his comp. went up, he may hold the money you thought you were going to get.
T&M.................
My brother had a saying..........Time is Money, My time is Your Money.
All the best with it.
petersonra
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern illinois
- Occupation
- engineer
You either are an employee and have WC coverage thru your employer or you don't.
Usually a principle of a company is not required to have WC as they are not considered employees. However, if you get hurt and don't have WC that is on you and not someone else.
I never said otherwise. Do I have to dumb it down a little for you?
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- Location
- Simi Valley, CA
Easy there ike, Sat may just ask you to do that very thing and show us just how much smater you are than the rest of us.:happysad:
petersonra
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern illinois
- Occupation
- engineer
- Location
- Simi Valley, CA
I readily admit i am not smater than the rest of us.
Me too, but you don't have to dumb it down for me. You just keep talking and I'll just keep nodding like I understand.:dunce:
GUNNING
Senior Member
- Location
- Gainesville, Florida
Save me from stoopid people
Save me from stoopid people
I find that technique works like a charm till I can gracefully back away and run for it.
Save me from stoopid people
I find that technique works like a charm till I can gracefully back away and run for it.
- Status