possible electrical bleed

[mla1976]

Looking for a little advise on my situation.I am affiliated with a 10 0r 15 acre summer style camp ground in eastern Ohio, where there is about 300 weekend occupants during peak summer weather. Each of the 300 camp locations have either a 30 amp 120V disconnect or 30 amp @240V disconnect. (Not the best keep in mind). The camp sites themselves range from nearly permanent trailers with built on enclosed areas to small camper trailers towed in for a few days at a time. these units are typically fed with an SO whip from the twist lock at the disconnect to the trailer panel, OR the more permanent sites have an underground 3 or 4 wire feeder into the trailer itself. all installed by whoever wanted it, over the years.

One of the trustees from this camp explained to me that their power bill for January was about 25,000 kwh, as compared to this past year's Septemeber bill of about 27,000 kwh. Keep in mind, during january, there are 13 full time residents on the property, in each of their 30 amp fed camper trailer. Also using power is the pumphouse for water treatment and a 600 square feet guard house where the 2 electric gates exist. As opposed to during the summer, there are 250 campers on average for each month, with air conditioning running constantly at nearly each unit. keep in mind, the camp pays the actual power bill, and every camper uses what ever they want for a fized annual fee, along with water andother expenses. Also, the guard house is fully occupied, and the entrance gates seem to raise and lower constantly. The water useage is a lot higher and so therefore so is it's treatment. There is also a olympic size swimming pool and approximately a 4500 square foot 2 story pool house with concessions, restroom, and entertainment. Several other shelters exist where bands and DJs play music for at least 12 hours a day,2 days a week. There is no gas on site, and a lot of the trailers have LP refrigerators and stoves within their unit.

Im thinking there is a loss of metered power caused by a bleed. Based on my visuals of the service conductors to the disconnects at each of the camp typically being URD or THHN without conduit running into the bottom and most often no ground rod at the service point, I am not really surprised. Im looking for any ideas for efficient trouble shooting to find the source of the "loss" or if something else sticks out in my situation. The only constant is the water treatment/filtration, but it has a lot less volume in the winter than in summer.

As far as seeing prevoius years bills go, they are being located for comparison, to try to see if there is an abrupt change in recent past. Any ideas? any past experiences like this? Keep in mind, the entire place could stand for some electrical improvements all aound so there is a fair amount of poor installation of underground feeders to contend with.
Any ideas would be helpful.

 

[iwire]

Sorry I had stopped at Facility Manager & construction administrator

 

[augie47]

Thats a high enough current that you should be able to start taking some amperage readings and locate the usage.
Bad well pumps, waterheaters and leakge in underground wiring could all contribute.

 

[Hv&Lv]

Im thinking there is a loss of metered power caused by a bleed. Based on my visuals of the service conductors to the disconnects at each of the camp typically being URD or THHN without conduit running into the bottom and most often no ground rod at the service point, I am not really surprised. Im looking for any ideas for efficient trouble shooting to find the source of the "loss" or if something else sticks out in my situation.

As with many parks like this, the wire is usually direct buried. I have seen many a bad underground wire cause electric bills to rise in between the first disconnect and the final panel. It usually happens to mobile homes though. When the wire gets a hole in it, naturally the electricity goes to ground (earth). this causes heat, along with the wire arching away. It isn't enough to trip a breaker, but it is enough to cause the electric bill to rise. There is energy being used, whether it is powering an airconditioner, or arching away in the ground. Have any of the campers noticed irregular voltage?
Do you have a good amp meter? Check each wire with no load and see if there is an amp reading.

You can call an electrician with an earth return fault meter to check out the feeders. We use a Dynatel 573. Great tool...

 

[iceworm]

... One of the trustees from this camp explained to me that their power bill for January was about 25,000 kwh, as compared to this past year's Septemeber bill of about 27,000 kwh. ...

Let me see if I got this:
The bill is lower in Jan than it was in Sep, but maybe not enough lower because there are a lot less people. There is no previous data available for comparison. The feeling of the trustee is the bill in Jan is too high? Or the bill for Jan and previous Sep are both too high?

... Im thinking there is a loss of metered power caused by a bleed. ...

I'm guessing that a "bleed" is a power loss through poor insulation resistance - probably in underground wiring. Would that be true?

If so, what is the expected magnitude of the loss that you are looking for? For example, are you looking for 1%, 10%, 30% of the ussage?

... Im looking for any ideas for efficient trouble shooting to find the source of the "loss" or if something else sticks out in my situation. ....

Considering your background, I really don't have any suggestions that you won't already know and are already doing.

Reinforcing what Hv and Gus said, if you are looking for underground defective insulation, there are only about two easy methods (yes there are others, but they get tougher to do):
1. A clamp-on ammeter big enough to go around a particular feeder (including the neutral) used as a ground fault detector. If the measured current is >0A, then there is current returning to the source possibily through poor insulation, possibily through a defective piece of equipment.

2. De-energize and isolate individual feeders. Megger each feeder.

ice

 

[templdl]

It would be interesting to know if anybody has experienced something like this. One would like to think that this isn't the first time that something like this happened with the brain trust and years and years of experience that we have on this forum.
One thing that comes to mind is that if there was current flowing to ground somewhere that VxA=W. The watts part you would have to think is doing something and one wouldn't think that the ampere part is just disappearing. Wouldn?t there be a dissipation of energy quite often in heat should the current be significant? That would be my concern.

 

[acrwc10]

I would get right on finding the problem, I have read far to many reports of someone being killed because of some underground fault seeking its way back to its source.
Definitely put an amp meter on the feeders and see if you can find it that way, to start. If you locate the fault that way you are getting off easy.

 

[ptonsparky]

27KW equals out to about 113 amps, 24hrs a day, for a month. Single phase. Faulted underground will most likely not be the problem. Underground will burn itself in two with a very obvious failure. Look for a heat pump that has failed & they are now running on backup electric heat. We see this often enough when checking for high usage.

 

[Hv&Lv]

It would be interesting to know if anybody has experienced something like this. One would like to think that this isn't the first time that something like this happened with the brain trust and years and years of experience that we have on this forum.
One thing that comes to mind is that if there was current flowing to ground somewhere that VxA=W. The watts part you would have to think is doing something and one wouldn't think that the ampere part is just disappearing. Wouldn?t there be a dissipation of energy quite often in heat should the current be significant? That would be my concern.

Experienced something like what? Underground burnt out? almost monthly...

 

[Hv&Lv]

27KW equals out to about 113 amps, 24hrs a day, for a month. Single phase. Faulted underground will most likely not be the problem. Underground will burn itself in two with a very obvious failure. Look for a heat pump that has failed & they are now running on backup electric heat. We see this often enough when checking for high usage.

Underground will burn itself into, you are correct. But if the bad feeder isn't being used for something, how will he know if the underground is burnt into unless he checks. It will continue to use power and run the power bill up, untill it either trips the breaker, burns the XF out, or burns itself in the clear (out of the ground).

 

[cadpoint]

Let me see if I got this: ... ( )
2. De-energize and isolate individual feeders. Megger each feeder.

ice

Draw a map, divide and conquer. Do a complete survey, your laying hands, 100% or walk...

Report and then submit a cost as required.

For me there's no simple fix other than fix it, or qualify that it doesn't exist. Hard sale, upsale or no sale...

 

[templdl]

Experienced something like what? Underground burnt out? almost monthly...

Yes I do realize that it is common to have to locate exactly where that line has failed so you can fix it. I may be misunderstanding what your point is but I don't think the OP's problem is a 'burn out.' Would not a burn out indicate that you would have an open circuit or broken cable? As such the current would stop flowing if I am to understand what you are saying.
What the OP appeared to be stating is that current is flowing somewhere and consuming power whicn doesn't seem to be a burn out. However it would be a good thing if it was a burn out.

 

[renosteinke]

This is why I want to be able to call in a tactical nuke at the very mention of "RV parks." Here are some of the reasons I have found that contribute:

1) First off, the useage by campers has dramatically increased in the past few years. Where a simple light or two was once enough, today's "camper" has air conditioning, TV, and even a jacuzzi;

2) In response to this, their 'trade press' has all sorts of ads and articles about adding metering to individual spaces;

3) Which, of course, brings up the original, cheap-as-possible, minimal original distribution system. Such places are often not inspected. Thus, the original cables are not buried very deep. No park operator is going to like hearing that he needs to close his park for the month or so it will take to rip it all up and start over- even if he agrees, he's going to try to 'cheap out' again, leaving you right back where you started in a few years; finally,

4) "Campers" manage to morph from little Coleman pop-ups into full-size double-wide trailers with 200 amp service requirements.

While the others have suggested good ways to try to isolate the problem- assuming there is one- it's going to take a fair amount of time. Amp-clamping each circuit, even putting a recorder on each one overnight, is a good starting point. Had there been local metering installed, the issue would have been identified long ago.

Still, the repair will be but a patch, as I suspect the entire distribution system is obsolete and inadequate.

 

[templdl]

This is why I want to be able to call in a tactical nuke at the very mention of "RV parks." Here are some of the reasons I have found that contribute:

1) First off, the useage by campers has dramatically increased in the past few years. Where a simple light or two was once enough, today's "camper" has air conditioning, TV, and even a jacuzzi;

2) In response to this, their 'trade press' has all sorts of ads and articles about adding metering to individual spaces;

3) Which, of course, brings up the original, cheap-as-possible, minimal original distribution system. Such places are often not inspected. Thus, the original cables are not buried very deep. No park operator is going to like hearing that he needs to close his park for the month or so it will take to rip it all up and start over- even if he agrees, he's going to try to 'cheap out' again, leaving you right back where you started in a few years; finally,

4) "Campers" manage to morph from little Coleman pop-ups into full-size double-wide trailers with 200 amp service requirements.

While the others have suggested good ways to try to isolate the problem- assuming there is one- it's going to take a fair amount of time. Amp-clamping each circuit, even putting a recorder on each one overnight, is a good starting point. Had there been local metering installed, the issue would have been identified long ago.

Still, the repair will be but a patch, as I suspect the entire distribution system is obsolete and inadequate.

But, as you said, cheap is cheap and there is a price to pay for being cheap. Is it matter of having your cake and eating it to? I don?t think it?s possible without some additional investment on the owner?s part. The RV owner has some choices to make.
If I?m not mistaken when you think about it the earth is not a very good conductor of current to realize the power that is disappearing. Turning potential loose around a given area is quite dangerous. If there was a metal object within that area that would be energized and if there was a metal water line, gas line, conduit, etc, that too could become energized as well as being a plain and simple shock hazard to those who touch these metal object and anything that is attached to them or even so much as walking barefoot on the soil..
As such I would most likely rule out that scenario and opt for the "campers as the culprit.

 

[petersonra]

I would get a real electrician to come in and measure the current draw on each of the branch circuits. That should give you a good idea where to start.

If you find branch circuits where there is current flow but no trailer at that site, that could be a serious clue.

The reality is that you may have a more serious problem than you have money to fix it with. The $1000 or so the electrician will charge just to do investigating will probably result in a lot of consternation.

Unless you want to catch some flack, your best bet is to stay out of it. Nothing good will come of it.

 

[acrwc10]

But, as you said, cheap is cheap and there is a price to pay for being cheap. Is it matter of having your cake and eating it to? I don’t think it’s possible without some additional investment on the owner’s part. The RV owner has some choices to make.
If I’m not mistaken when you think about it the earth is not a very good conductor of current to realize the power that is disappearing. Turning potential loose around a given area is quite dangerous. If there was a metal object within that area that would be energized and if there was a metal water line, gas line, conduit, etc, that too could become energized as well as being a plain and simple shock hazard to those who touch these metal object and anything that is attached to them or even so much as walking barefoot on the soil..
As such I would most likely rule out that scenario and opt for the "campers as the culprit.

You are DEAD ON, the earth is a terrible conductor. If a buried line is exposed to the earth it will flow through the earth at a rate consistant with the resistance of the earth, simple math. Let's say you have 10 Ohms resistance in the earth and one phase conductor is running into the earth at 120 volts. Ohms law 120v divided by 10 ohms = 12amps. Now that isn't enough to trip a 15 amp OCPD and clear the fault. It's not enough to raise the bill to what was stated in the OP either. But raise the voltage, lower the resistance, consider multiple faults.

If there is a fault to earth, it is important to find it. There is countless cases of people being killed by similar situations.

Keep in mind, the connections to the roll up campers are being done by the campers and not qualified people, imagine what Homer may have done while connecting his castle on wheels.

 

[mla1976]

thanks!

thanks!

let me start by saying thanks to all of the posts on this subject. I am going to direct the trustees to the the thread so that they can see all of the "brain-trusts" ideas here about the issue. It will be up to them to decide on what is the most logical way to determine what, when and how much to do in regard to taking corrective action. I had most of these ideas when I was first explained of the situation and felt that this was a great forum to find a few ideas and obtain an unbiased opinon on how to proceed. Thanks to all again.

 

[petersonra]

let us know what they end up doing.

 

[Hv&Lv]

Yes I do realize that it is common to have to locate exactly where that line has failed so you can fix it. I may be misunderstanding what your point is but I don't think the OP's problem is a 'burn out.' Would not a burn out indicate that you would have an open circuit or broken cable? As such the current would stop flowing if I am to understand what you are saying.
What the OP appeared to be stating is that current is flowing somewhere and consuming power whicn doesn't seem to be a burn out. However it would be a good thing if it was a burn out.

Quite the opposite. current would continue to flow in a burnt out cable.

 

[Strife]

NOPE
Tell them to show you the bill from the previous January.
Keep in mind in Ohio September should be the lowest month actually(not hot enough to run the AC, not cold enough to run the heater). I assume the "residents" are running heat in January in Ohio.

Looking for a little advise on my situation.I am affiliated with a 10 0r 15 acre summer style camp ground in eastern Ohio, where there is about 300 weekend occupants during peak summer weather. Each of the 300 camp locations have either a 30 amp 120V disconnect or 30 amp @240V disconnect. (Not the best keep in mind). The camp sites themselves range from nearly permanent trailers with built on enclosed areas to small camper trailers towed in for a few days at a time. these units are typically fed with an SO whip from the twist lock at the disconnect to the trailer panel, OR the more permanent sites have an underground 3 or 4 wire feeder into the trailer itself. all installed by whoever wanted it, over the years.

One of the trustees from this camp explained to me that their power bill for January was about 25,000 kwh, as compared to this past year's Septemeber bill of about 27,000 kwh. Keep in mind, during january, there are 13 full time residents on the property, in each of their 30 amp fed camper trailer. Also using power is the pumphouse for water treatment and a 600 square feet guard house where the 2 electric gates exist. As opposed to during the summer, there are 250 campers on average for each month, with air conditioning running constantly at nearly each unit. keep in mind, the camp pays the actual power bill, and every camper uses what ever they want for a fized annual fee, along with water andother expenses. Also, the guard house is fully occupied, and the entrance gates seem to raise and lower constantly. The water useage is a lot higher and so therefore so is it's treatment. There is also a olympic size swimming pool and approximately a 4500 square foot 2 story pool house with concessions, restroom, and entertainment. Several other shelters exist where bands and DJs play music for at least 12 hours a day,2 days a week. There is no gas on site, and a lot of the trailers have LP refrigerators and stoves within their unit.

Im thinking there is a loss of metered power caused by a bleed. Based on my visuals of the service conductors to the disconnects at each of the camp typically being URD or THHN without conduit running into the bottom and most often no ground rod at the service point, I am not really surprised. Im looking for any ideas for efficient trouble shooting to find the source of the "loss" or if something else sticks out in my situation. The only constant is the water treatment/filtration, but it has a lot less volume in the winter than in summer.

As far as seeing prevoius years bills go, they are being located for comparison, to try to see if there is an abrupt change in recent past. Any ideas? any past experiences like this? Keep in mind, the entire place could stand for some electrical improvements all aound so there is a fair amount of poor installation of underground feeders to contend with.
Any ideas would be helpful.