Clamp Accessibility Question

[George Stolz]

Does the grounding clamp to the metal water piping system mentioned in 680.74 have to be accessible? What about a clamp to CSST?

 

[resistance]

Yes, and Yes

 

[Hv&Lv]

This may be a dumb question, but why wouldn't it be just as accessible as the pipe in any circumstance?

 

[Gac66610]

Does the grounding clamp to the metal water piping system mentioned in 680.74 have to be accessible? What about a clamp to CSST?

within 5' of water entrance, and around here anyway they want it close to shut off valve for accessibility
CSST at gas service entrance, as long as it is accessible from inside its ok, other wise we have to run it outside bond on to the pipe close to house

 

[infinity]

A grounding clamp for a hydromassage tub?

 

[Gac66610]

A grounding clamp for a hydromassage tub?

there i go again reading without thinking :dunce:

680.74 does not mention anything about access for the bonding 680.73 states the electrical equipment shall be accessible
so if the bonding is electrical equipment then yes it should be accessible

so how many tubs have tile all around except for accessing the motor, might be able to see the bond
most i have done have cabinet front with doors

change in 2011 (last statement) .... the 8 AWG or larger solid copper bonding jumper shall be long enough to terminate on a replacement non-double insulated pump motor and shall be terminated to the equipment grounding conductor of the branch circuit of the motor when a double insulated circulating pump motor is used

 

[kwired]

Does the grounding clamp to the metal water piping system mentioned in 680.74 have to be accessible? What about a clamp to CSST?

How often do you run into a hydromassage tub with water piping that is not in same area as the pump that requires accessabiliy? Outside of that I'm not sure.

Is the CSST question related to the hydromassage tub or just a question about CSST?

CSST in general needs to have bond clamp at the transition fittings to other piping and not on the CSST itself. If the clamp is there there should not be a problem, as gas codes generally do not allow fittings to be permanently concealed. That is part of why they use CSST - no fittings needed except at the ends of a run. If running hard piping any elbows tees, or other fittings to be permanently concealed need to be welded fittings and not threaded, compression, flare - etc.

 

[infinity]

How often do you run into a hydromassage tub with water piping that is not in same area as the pump that requires accessabiliy? Outside of that I'm not sure.

But, nevermind.

 

[George Stolz]

The access door for a hydro massage tub could be at the head of the tub alongside the motor. Assuming the plumbing is at the foot of the tub, then the clamp at the plumbing would be inaccessible. Is there a code reference that would prohibit the inaccessible clamp at the foot of the tub?

 

[resistance]

@ George,
I believe your answer is directly above 680.74. See 680.73. It says: Hydromassage bathtub electrical equipment shall be accessible without damaging the structure, or building finish. The key word—which i’m sure you know—is electrical equipment. Per NEC 100: equipment would include the grounding or bonding clamp.

 

[George Stolz]

Is that actually enforced that way in your area?

So, moving on to the CSST, I do not see a code requirement for a clamp bonding CSST to be accessible. Am I missing it?

It has been said that the CSST fittings are required to be accessible - in the apartment I am in, they are about to conceal a ton of them. Can you cite that reference?

 

[resistance]

Is that actually enforced that way in your area?

So, moving on to the CSST, I do not see a code requirement for a clamp bonding CSST to be accessible. Am I missing it?

It has been said that the CSST fittings are required to be accessible - in the apartment I am in, they are about to conceal a ton of them. Can you cite that reference?

Yes, electrical equipment—where a bonding clamp is considered the equipment, shall be accessible in my area.

The CSST is another topic of debate, but you will have a strong argument to use section 250.104 (B):

1. (B) Other Metal Piping. Where installed in or attached to a building or structure, metalpiping system(s), including gas piping, that is likely to become energized shall bebonded to the service equipment enclosure, the grounded conductor at the service, thegrounding electrode conductor where of sufficient size, or to one or more groundingelectrodes used. The bonding jumper(s) shall be sized in accordance with 250.122,using the rating of the circuit that is likely to energize the piping system(s). Theequipment grounding conductor for the circuit that is likely to energize the piping shallbe permitted to serve as the bonding means. The points of attachment of the bondingjumper(s) shall be accessible.
   FPN: Bonding all piping and metal air ducts within the premises will provide additionalsafety.

 

[resistance]

Here is our Admins code?which requires CSST to be bonded: 104(B) Bonding ? other metal piping. (10) For flexible metal gas piping, installed new or extended from an existing rigid metal piping system, either:
(a) Provide a copy of the manufacturer?s bonding instructions to the inspector at the time of inspection and
follow those instructions; or
(b) The bonding conductor for the gas system must:
Page 25 of 118
WAC 296-46B-250 Wiring and protection - Grounding and bonding.

(i) Must be a minimum 6 AWG copper; and(ii) Terminate at:
(A) An accessible location at the gas meter end of the gas piping system on either a solidiron gas pipe or a cast flexible gas piping fitting using a listed grounding connector;and
(B) Either the service equipment enclosure, service grounding electrode conductor orelectrode, or neutral conductor bus in the service enclosure.

 

[resistance]

Sorry to keep posting, but I believe most states are using our line ?a? to enforce the bonding for CSST. Which says: Provide a copy of the manufacturer?s bonding instructions to the inspector at the time of inspection and
follow those instructions

 

[hurk27]

This was a big debate here at one time.

I asked how do we comply with pool EPG bonds? got a blank stare:huh:

I think the code treats EPG bonds much different then GES or 250.104 bonds which both are required to be accessible, and there is an exception for CEE and buried bonds to rods of 8' in 250.68 I have never been required to have a bond accessible for a hydro massage tub, or any EPG type bond?

 

[hurk27]

@ George,
I believe your answer is directly above 680.74. See 680.73. It says: Hydromassage bathtub electrical equipment shall be accessible without damaging the structure, or building finish. The key word—which i’m sure you know—is electrical equipment. Per NEC 100: equipment would include the grounding or bonding clamp.

and 680.71 state all electrical components shall be protected with a ground fault, so how are we to protect the EPG with a GFCI? is not the clamp an electrical component using your definition?

We see clearly in 250.68 and in several places in 250.104 where the code spells this out directly as to requiring the bond to be accessible, but not in 680? again how are you going to bond a inground pool shell, ladder stirrups?

All though I don't see the requirement in 680 for electrical equipment to be accessible like in 680.73 I believe other parts of the code would require it, and again there is no requirement for accessibility of the connections of the EPG system? if there was it would be imposable to do so.

Edited to add, that using the article 100 definition of "equipment" even pipe couplings and connectors would be included:

Equipment. A general term, including material, fittings,
devices, appliances, luminaires, apparatus, machinery, and
the like used as a part of, or in connection with, an electrical
installation.

 

[resistance]

and 680.71 state all electrical components shall be protected with a ground fault, so how are we to protect the EPG with a GFCI? is not the clamp an electrical component using your definition?

We see clearly in 250.68 nad sevral place in 250.104 where the code spells this out directly as to requiring the bond to be accessible, but not in 680?

Not my definition, it?s in the code book

 

[resistance]

I believe 680.73 means any electrical equipment associated with the tub. Equipment is defined in 100.

 

[resistance]

@ hurk,
wouldn?t electrical equipment include an electrical component?

 

[hurk27]

I believe 680.73 means any electrical equipment associated with the tub. Equipment is defined in 100.

so if we have conduit feeding the receptacle under the tub in the wall it would be required to be accessible? I agree it is nuts that the definition is so broadly written, but if these connections are to be accessible why wasn't the wording put in there like it was for 250.68 and 250.104?

(A) Accessibility. All mechanical elements used to terminate
a grounding electrode conductor or bonding jumper to
a grounding electrode shall be accessible.

Exception No. 1: An encased or buried connection to a
concrete-encased, driven, or buried grounding electrode
shall not be required to be accessible.

Exception No. 2: Exothermic or irreversible compression
connections used at terminations, together with the mechanical
means used to attach such terminations to fireproofed
structural metal whether or not the mechanical
means is reversible, shall not be required to be accessible.

What about pool forming shells? or other EPG connection points that are in most cases under the concrete?

The problem I have is that no where in the NEC is there any requirements for equipotential bonding to be accessible including 547?