Refrigerators and GCFI's in concession stands?

[ssandoval]

I haven't been able to find anything in the code specific to high school concession stands and GFCI requirements for them. Putting refrigerators on them does not seem like a good idea but the engineers/ architechs are saying they're required. I know the provisions for GFCI in single family dwelling garages/ refrigerators changed but what about in a commercial environment that is not a kitchen?

 

[charlie b]

. . . but what about in a commercial environment that is not a kitchen?

How can a concession stand not be a kitchen? Does it have a sink? Is it a permanent structure (as opposed to a tent that is put up for a school picnic)? Are the cooking appliances limited to crock pots and microwave ovens, or are there stoves, ovens, deep fat fryers, and other "permanent" provisions for cooking? If those answers, in order, are yes, yes, and yes, then you have a non-dwelling unit kitchen, and you need GFCIs.

 

[roger]

I agree with Charlie, the concession stand may be a small commercial kitchen but it is a commercial kitchen.

Roger

 

[ssandoval]

No sink, no permanent cooking provisions; crock pots/ microwaves, etc. The GFCI's have been a problem because when the trip the booster club folks lose all of their food. Of course, I realize they're tripping for a reason, but I was hoping to find an exception that would allow single recpts on dedicated circuits to be non-GFCI protected....?

 

[acrwc10]

No sink, no permanent cooking provisions; crock pots/ microwaves, etc. The GFCI's have been a problem because when the trip the booster club folks lose all of their food. Of course, I realize they're tripping for a reason, but I was hoping to find an exception that would allow single recpts on dedicated circuits to be non-GFCI protected....?

What code cycle are you under? 2005 NEC you could get away with it.
The reality is you have an old refridge that someone donated and it has a bad motor.

 

[ssandoval]

What code cycle are you under? 2005 NEC you could get away with it.
The reality is you have an old refridge that someone donated and it has a bad motor.

The install fell under '05. Actually they bought new refrigerators; the school just opened this past fall.

 

[acrwc10]

Sounds like a bad refer, but under 05' you could put it on a single receptacle.

 

[renosteinke]

I agree that the OP did not fully describe what he meant by 'concession stand.'

What about .... a simple bank of vending machines, perhaps with a microwave on the counter, with or without a sink?

Without a sink, it's not a 'kitchen' of any sort.

Without the microwave being built-in, it's just a 'break room,' and not a kitchen ... even if there's a sink. Nuking a sandwitch does not constitute 'preparing food.'

Even assuming there was a 'kitchen,' that might apply only to the specific area about the sink and the cooking equipment, and not the entire room. (I have in mind a certain University 'student union' which has light-duty cooking facilities along part of a wall in the common TV / seating / recreation area).

Looking at another common variation, what about the 'concession stand' at the local ball field. Nothing there but a soda fountain (maybe) and a freezer for prepackaged ice cream. No cooking at all.

 

[kwired]

Microwave ovens are not permanent cooking provisions whether "built in" or on the counter.

Many concession stands at small high schools around here are nothing more than refrigerators, freezers, popcorn machines, maybe hot dog grills, and usually crock pots, or other warmers for food that was prepared someplace else.

The popcorn machine and hot dog grill may be considered by some as permanent cooking provisions - you need to see what the AHJ says. I myself would not consider them as being any more permanent than the crock pots or other warmers. Small popcorn machines are portable enough and usually plug into a 15 or 20 amp 125 volt receptacle. Bigger machines you can question easier as they usually need a 30 amp 125 volt circuit or even 250 volt circuits.

I have not seen one that has a fryer - too much expense as it also would need a exhaust hood and fire suppression system. Unless the concession happens to share space with the school's regular kitchen - but then there is usually no question as to whether or not it is a kitchen.

 

[cowboyjwc]

I would say no GFCI. When I was the league president we had three snack shacks and when they were built they weren't required to have any GFCI, though we later put them by the sinks.

Now if all they have is a sink, and you are considering them commercial, then with the size of some of those, almost everything is within 6'.

 

[roger]

No sink, no permanent cooking provisions; crock pots/ microwaves, etc. The GFCI's have been a problem because when the trip the booster club folks lose all of their food. Of course, I realize they're tripping for a reason, but I was hoping to find an exception that would allow single recpts on dedicated circuits to be non-GFCI protected....?

Then I agree that GFCI's are not required across the board in your scenario.

I agree that the OP did not fully describe what he meant by 'concession stand.'

What about .... a simple bank of vending machines, perhaps with a microwave on the counter, with or without a sink?

GFCI protection would be required for the vending machines.

Roger

 

[renosteinke]

I was not sure if GFCI protection was required on indoor vending machines.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Microwave ovens are not permanent cooking provisions whether "built in" or on the counter. ...

How is a "built-in" microwave not a permanent provision for cooking? It is more permanent than a stand alone stove.

 

[iwire]

Microwave ovens are not permanent cooking provisions whether "built in" or on the counter.

Can you provide any source for this news?

 

[acrwc10]

Can you provide any source for this news?

I would take the stand that, If a built in Microwave Oven needs its own circuit and does not if it isn't built in. Then a Built in is "permanent". Well maybe it is just "fixed in place".

 

[ptonsparky]

The GFCIs are not the problem. Required or not. Fix the problem. I know that wasn't the question..

 

[ceb58]

the engineers/ architects are saying they're required

If that is what is in the approved drawings then there is your answer.

ptonsparky

The GFCIs are not the problem. Required or not. Fix the problem.​

Agreed

 

[kwired]

How is a "built-in" microwave not a permanent provision for cooking? It is more permanent than a stand alone stove.

Can you provide any source for this news?

I would take the stand that, If a built in Microwave Oven needs its own circuit and does not if it isn't built in. Then a Built in is "permanent". Well maybe it is just "fixed in place".

What exactly is "built in"? Just a microwave on a shelf in a cabinet makes the microwave different than if it is on the counter how? A fastened in place over the range type - maybe is a permanent cooking provision. In those cases if there is a range - well you have more than just the microwave to justify permanent cooking provisions.

Wet bar with a microwave on a shelf that is part of the cabinets - if you call that permanent cooking provisions then the wet bar is a kitchen and must supply receptacles with at least two SABC's, all counter receptacles must meet 210.52(C)spacing and be GFCI protected.

 

[iwire]

What exactly is "built in"? Just a microwave on a shelf in a cabinet makes the microwave different than if it is on the counter how? A fastened in place over the range type - maybe is a permanent cooking provision. In those cases if there is a range - well you have more than just the microwave to justify permanent cooking provisions.

Wet bar with a microwave on a shelf that is part of the cabinets - if you call that permanent cooking provisions then the wet bar is a kitchen and must supply receptacles with at least two SABC's, all counter receptacles must meet 210.52(C)spacing and be GFCI protected.

I don't understand your response at all.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

What exactly is "built in"? Just a microwave on a shelf in a cabinet makes the microwave different than if it is on the counter how? A fastened in place over the range type - maybe is a permanent cooking provision. In those cases if there is a range - well you have more than just the microwave to justify permanent cooking provisions.

Wet bar with a microwave on a shelf that is part of the cabinets - if you call that permanent cooking provisions then the wet bar is a kitchen and must supply receptacles with at least two SABC's, all counter receptacles must meet 210.52(C)spacing and be GFCI protected.

In my opinion as soon as you fasten the microwave down you have a "permanent provision for cooking" and if you have sink and an area for food preparation you have a kitchen. Yes, a permanent microwave may trigger other rules, and would make many hotel rooms into dwelling units. This last issue is one of the real objections to calling a fastened in place microwave a "permanent provision for cooking".

The real issue here, as well as in many other areas of the code, is; "what is permanent". How is a stand alone stove that is not fastened in place permanent? Most will say that that stove is a "permanent provision for cooking", but many will say the fastened in place microwave is not. There have been some comments in the ROPs and ROCs that said the word "permanent" should not be used as nothing is really "permanent".