Had to drop my rates to an all time low.

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bullheimer

Senior Member
Location
WA
Unreal how my phone does not ring these days. It is, unfortunately for me, the way every year has gone for four years: Do great in Winter? and then zero in Mid March all the way thru July. I don't know what's going on but they are not creating any jobs for me around here. Get this! $55/hr! I have another licensed contractor on Craigslist advertising $55 so, just on my craigslist ad i had to match him, as my phone is not ringing and i had been getting at least one or two calls a week from it. So i would recommend it as it used to cost money to place an ad, now it's free. I will put the about to puke sign here now: :sick:

Any comments more than welcome, (that's why i posted). Hope y'all r doin better than i am.
 
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templdl

Senior Member
Location
Wisconsin
Unreal how my phone does not ring these days. It is, unfortunately for me, the way every year has gone for four years: Do great in Winter? and then zero in Mid March all the way thru July. I don't know what's going on but they are not creating any jobs for me around here. Get this! $55/hr! I have another licensed contractor on Craigslist advertising $55 so, just on my craigslist ad i had to match him, as my phone is not ringing and i had been getting at least one or two calls a week from it. So i would recommend it as it used to cost money to place an ad, now it's free. I will put the about to puke sign here now: :sick:

Any comments more than welcome, (that's why i posted). Hope y'all r doin better than i am.

It appears as though you are getting into a match the rates price type of war. Other than matching rates how are you differentiating yourself from the other guys? In other words how are you promoting yourself that would cause your potential customers to call you? Try to market yourself in a way that makes you better than your competition.
If you have non productive time on your hands consider free inspections, estimates, consultations, using the bulletin boards that are often available in grocery and hardware stores using tare off tabs with your phone number. Do anything that can that may pick up a couple more customers. How about offering your customers a gift certificate if they refer you one of their friends and you get more work from that.
In other words try to make yourself different. How you interrelate with customers, asking if you should take off your shoes when entering a resident, using a small vacuum to clean up debris. Just make yourself different.
Think abut what you would like to see from a contractor who you would hire to do work for you and why you would hire and recommend them should the choice be between contractors that have the same rates. What you don't want to do is to lower your rates below your competitors. Not a good thing.
Botton line?? You want more than "your far share" of the business. It's not a share the wealth thing. Get out there and kick some butt!! Use that extra time that you may have to promote your business.
 

KVA

Senior Member
Location
United States
craigslist:lol: nuff said really

I have used craigslist for over 2 years now and advertise on their at random times.

You have to realize it's a free site like an online flea market. Do you expect to get a real paying client from a site like that? Didn't they have a section on their where you could get prostitutes?:lol: Also read the rants and raves section on their and you'll see what kind of "quality" people frequent that site. That site is like the ghetto of the internet anything goes.

I made close to $5k ALL year from Craigslist in 2011. Some may think 5k for free advertising that is good. But you don't know what i had to do and put up with to get that.

I don't even advertise my business name on their no way in hell! All cash jobs and a generic receipt i give them. Those people don't want "pros" even though I am one...they just want it "hooked up"
 

bullheimer

Senior Member
Location
WA
How i am different from the rest of the herd.

How i am different from the rest of the herd.

For starters to templdl

i am a Master and they aint;
i am open 7 days a week and they aint;
saturday is straight time and most aint;
free estimates;
veteran owned;
veteran discounts 10%
Emergency service 24/7
open 8am to 11pm
phone book ads say most of the above

only thing i can think of is i'm not networking at all. i need to join the elks, american legion post, moose lodge, KKK, AxeMurderersRUs, etc(j/k), problem with that is they all have a thing called dues. and i be broke. a bud of mine got Squat from being in the BBB or local home builders assoc. for two years so he quit. he takes credit cards tho and bids alot of work he doesnt get and he is just as broke and almost out of business as i am.
big reason i didnt join those when i had money was they were allowed to smoke inside and now they can't. i can't take smoke.

i had to STOP offering senior discounts because all they do is stand there and watch and talk, or they have animals you have to make sure don't get out of the house. or they think they should be paying $25/hr because thats the most they ever made. or they stink from the animales, or they are deaf and you have to explain everything you do to them twice. or this or that, like usually too it's way too hot inside and i am wearing long johns and have to take off all my clothes. i actually want to charge them extra, if anything. or trailers, alot live in trailers. i dont like trailers parks.

to KVA, yeah craigslist is ghetto no doubt, and most hang up if i tell them more than $25/hr. but i do get work and it is free. as for cash, they get a real receipt no matter what since the irs is stuffed so far up my butt at the moment i poop irs forms. they got all my bank statements from march of 2012 to jan of 2007. also, i have ads in the real phone books so..... got anything that might help me out?
 
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templdl

Senior Member
Location
Wisconsin
You covered quite bit:

I wonder if the give a rats behind about the masters because they probably don't have clue what that is but it's good to list anyway. I'm no a big fan of ads because I wonder if there is a payback. Ads are the traditional thing to do but is it a good investment.

These are really some good things that seem to set you apart from the others that you listed which is service:
i am open 7 days a week and they aint;
saturday is straight time and most aint;
free estimates;
veteran owned;
veteran discounts 10%
Emergency service 24/7
open 8am to 11pm
What you have here is going the extra yard. Being veteran owned and giving veteran discounts I thinks gives you credibility.
As far as senior citizens are concerned in my opinion it would be on a case by case basis. You certainly don't want to give your time away sacrificing profitable billable hours so if you have some open time you may as well bring in a couple of extra bucks. My son said a wise thing to me, "It's more money than I had before" when he picks up some extra bucks on the side. If you don't have the time so be it of let the seniors know when you may have an opening in your schedule.

But you have to try the local bulletin boards such as those that may be found in supermarkets, hardware stores, Laundromats, etc. And they are free. But you have to maintain them. Print them up on your printer with a bunch of pull of tabs with your phone numbers along the end. I?m sure that you have some nice business cards that can draw attention. Take up some of those that they can take. Some of your services that are required quite often originate from women and house wives.

Where are you located? Do you have an Angie's list the area? If so you can't get on it by yourself but if you have a couple of good customer?s maybe somehow you can persuade them to become members and get you on that list. Just an idea.
My wife and I ended up on Angie?s list and it certainly was far from a gold mine for us but we did get a customers from it that we didn't have before.

Anything that you can do to build your customer base.
 

renosteinke

Senior Member
Location
NE Arkansas
I generally offer my opinion in my posts .... but this time, someone else said it better than I ever could. The following is from a forum called "Paint Talk," and it's 100% relevant here:

Craftsmanship is not what makes a business succesful

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I guess the first thing I should do is preclude this post with an explaination. I'm sure the blood pressure of many has risen just reading the title of this thread. This is not about big versus small. It about generating profit.

Doing high quality work is a given. I don't think anyone here will stand up and publicly declare that they do substandard painting. There may be plenty of guys that don't know how to paint but they don't (or shouldn't) own businesses. If a company is asking someone to trade their dollars for a paint job, their work has to be above and beyond what the average novice can perform. So again I say that craftsmanship should be a constant for everyone here. Please consider this though, being the best painter will not neccessarily make you a successful business owner.

I am not trying to preach to anyone, declare your business a failure or compare your goals to mine. I want to parlay that people will pay good money for a positive experience. It is this experience that makes a company successful and able to achieve longevity or growth.

Why Do You Own a Business?

There are many reasons a person will venture out on their own and hang a shingle that says "Painting". They tire of working for a disorganized company. They tire of making someone else rich. Maybe they even want to offer a level of quality that doesn't exist in their market. The bottom line of all of those is.. that person wants to generate more money than he can working for someone else.

Where The Plan Goes South

It's very easy to get single minded and let your ego blind you to your goals. If, "I'm going to offer the highest quality work" was your mantra and you stayed true to that goal, you have realized that quality work is expensive (for the business owner). You need to use high price paints, your prep takes a long time, you have to hire high end employees, the list goes on. If you haven't priced your service as the highest in the market, you have been taking it on the chin. You are probably slaving day in and day out doing estimates at night and strapping on your boots in the morning. Is this what you envisioned when you opened shop? Have your personal finances increased every year since you started this thing or are you in the same place you were five years ago?

But.. My customers get quality work and that's what counts the most.

Okay so.. your paint jobs rock. You do not need to advertise because you are in demand. People line up to get "quality at an affordable price." I don't know who to call but you are a candidate for a Nobel prize for altruism. You bust hump, give people awesome quality, charge a fair price and they love you for it. Meanwhile you pray your truck doesn't break down because your daughter needed braces and your central air just kicked the bucket. You can't afford to put your guys in uniform.. wait there are no guys, you cannot afford to hire someone that paints to your standards.

Are you trapped? Is "enslaved" even more accurate a word? What if you get hurt tommorrow? Will the business operate without you? Even if it stays afloat, are you building wealth? Hourly employees live paycheck to paycheck. Wasn't owning a business your ticket to get away from that stressful lifestyle?

So if not quality, what is it that makes one successful?

John is a decent painter. Most homeowners would call his work "good"
Alan is a craftsman. The cream of the crop when it comes to quality. John couldn't hold Alan's strap when it comes to cutting lines or turning a wall into a canvas.

Alan drives an 8 year old van with a magnet, works by himself and makes $38K a year. He has tried raising his prices but his customers complained. His referral network fell apart when he went up. He cannot close new work at the higher rate because his image does not parlay that he is a successful painter. Alan realized his workload was falling off so he panicked and went back to his old rates. Alan comes on the internet at night and types.. "marketing doesn't work. Selling doesn't work. People in my area won't pay that much for a paint job." Alan can look at photos that other guy's post and immediately see the flaws. Alan is a damn good painter. Alan's wife wishes he would go back to making union wages working for someone else.

John offers a good paint job. His customers are very satisfied with his work. John realized early on he wasn't the best painter in the world so he sought to make customers confident in hiring him. He has professionally designed business cards, brochures, and uses various advertising medium. When someone calls for an estimate, John is on the phone with them within the hour. He schedules appointments, he shows up on time. He speaks well and he knows the painting business. He instills confidence in the homeowner. John carries all the insurance, wears the logo'd gear and has brochures and color charts for the customer to view. John is not so busy that he cannot spend some time with a customer making sure they feel comforable before signing a contract. John isn't knee deep in mud doing texture every day so he can answer his cell phone and talk to a customer that has concerns. John's customers absolutely love the experience in dealing with his company. They feel that their needs are always first. The job is done cleanly, efficiently and in the customer's eyes, is flawless. They know why they paid John twice what that guy Alan wanted to charge them.

Alan thinks John's business is a scam.. smoke and mirrors. Alan's ego makes him believe this his superior quality is all the customer wants or needs. John just put his sixth truck on the road and hired an operations manager. That burns Alan's hide that John is able to con people into using his service.. after all, Alan is the superior painter.

There are many criteria that customers look for in a buying experience. Contrary to what you may have convinced yourself, quality is only one part of the equation and not neccessarily the most important. Ask yourself this. Does Starbucks have the greatest coffee in the world? It has to be right? They open new stores every single day and are the largest retailer of coffee in the world. I can't imagine how they do this since I find the $1.50 large coffee at Dunkin Donuts far superior in smoothness and taste. Starbucks provides a good customer experience.

Look directly into that mirror

Whenever you get the temptation to sit back and post "I don't need to advertise, my work is all referral" put yourself into check and look at what you are doing. Is it your ego that is successful or is it truly your business? Business is measured by profit. I don't want to create a wrong message. Success doesn't mean a hundred crews on the road because that comes with headaches that many don't want, no matter what the profit.

A one man show can be plenty profitable for some and have the right balance of working and having a life. If you are booked for the next four months without doing any type of advertising I am going to venture that you are underpricing your service. Actually, its not a guess, its a certainty. Try raising your prices. As little as a ten percent raise can put an extra ten thousand dollars in your pocket this year. Are you going to lose some bids? Of course, but who cares? So now you will be booked 45 days in advance instead of 120. Maybe you will finish working by two o'clock every day instead of by 5 or 6. A strange things also happens. You find yourself working less and making more money. Is that all that bad? If your work quality is all that you think it is, you'll still get the referrals and be making enough on your jobs to hire that union guy or other craftsmen like yourself to start taking away your burden.

You can only be your company for so long. Its always juggling swords of fire. Eventually, something happens and you can be left burned. Now is a good time to preclude making that mistake.
 

bullheimer

Senior Member
Location
WA
thanks for that but doesnt really apply. i advertise in the #1 phone book, just a dollar bill sized ad. i had a whole page in the same book the first year they were in biz and got one cal the whole year! now i owe the main phone book and only have a line listing. that was 40% of my biz which i lost the first year. so i can't get that back as they want triple what i really owe them so they can drop dead. all our bulletin boards are pretty full. if i went there i would have to have my own tack and i never have one. my car has vinyl from end to end. i have been charging the going rate, only now dropping it. and only to those who read craigslist.

i have had one call in four years from my cars vinyl. one from my yard signs. many from stopping and talking to owners of already started projects. i take time, lots of time i think. but maybe not enough. i just lost a job to a lady to told me to email her a bid which i did twice, just to hear that she hired somebody else because nobody else sent her a bid to her email, so this stupid b obviously can't even figure out how to open the attachments in her email. i cant assume people dont know how to open an attachment when they tell me to email them something can i? but i will in the future. i just didn't know that people in the business of being an appraiser (her) that they could be so unbelievably stupid that they don't know what an attachment is. Should i also go to a persons house i mail a snail letter to so i can open it for them also? no.

one time last year i got a call to fix a table saw for an old old old old man. after an hour taking it all apart, dumb ol me figured it was the switch. went and got one, cost was ten bucks, put it back in taking another hour to put it in. when i got done fixing it, he gives me $25 cash like a tip. i didn't have my receipt book that day. i said thanks and sent him a bill for only one hour $75 plus tax. he never sent me a check. he thought 25 was more than enough. maybe yeah, in the great depression. just a side story, sorry, had to vent. i'm in a venting state of mind.
 
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ramsy

Roger Ruhle dba NoFixNoPay
Location
LA basin, CA
Occupation
Service Electrician 2020 NEC
Free advertising on Craigs List is also used by corporate scum, just as ghetto as any dirt bag, but on a grander scale.

Seeing more Craig's List want ads for electrical estimators, not asking for much experience for ground up TI projects. Perhaps letting their experienced estimators go, or after low balling their way in are trying to avoid a bloody nose. Either way, employment in this industry is uncertain for everybody.

Self employed people take risks, hustle their own customers, and must constantly adapt themselves to new opportunity & threats in the environment. Failure can be spectacular, but pain retains memory, and can eventually build a specialization thru comparative advantage.

If we forget, we can always go back for another taste. Plenty are waiting to refresh our memory.
 

bullheimer

Senior Member
Location
WA
here in nunya (washington state) it is illegal for anyone to advertise elec. work unless they are a licensed electrical contractor. that includes both gens and licensed jmen who are not contractors.

i go thru the ads on a weekly basis, (should be daily) and i flag them all who are advertising illegally.

One other thing that is killing me no doubt, is that a very big contractor from another area opened a shop right down the street from me two years ago. every day i drive by their shop and maybe one of their seven vans are there, so the rest are out. all i know about them is they pay crap wages. i think less than 20 for a resi jman, which for these days prolly aint so bad. they pretty much have the tract home guys sewed up. but that isnt really my niche anyway. but they are in every book and they advertise all kinds of work too so...i know they are getting some of 'mine'.
 
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KVA

Senior Member
Location
United States
Bottom line is Craigslist is a waste of time. Go after real paying customers and you won't have to "lower your rates".

What would you do if Craigslist wasn't around?
 

cowboyjwc

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Simi Valley, CA
I know that I'll catch guff for this, I always do, and I know I'll hear about what it cost's to run a business, but I keep telling people that the days of $150 hr service calls are gone. Now I've heard all the stories about guys thinking that their phones had been disconnected because it stopped ringing to guys who say that they never slowed down and I couldn't start to tell you what the reasons were for either one.
 

KVA

Senior Member
Location
United States
I know that I'll catch guff for this, I always do, and I know I'll hear about what it cost's to run a business, but I keep telling people that the days of $150 hr service calls are gone. Now I've heard all the stories about guys thinking that their phones had been disconnected because it stopped ringing to guys who say that they never slowed down and I couldn't start to tell you what the reasons were for either one.

Why do you think that? Is the cost of living on this planet getting cheaper and I don't know about it?

We are contractors we get discounts on fuel, food, cell phone rates, tools etc... that I don't know about?

If anything almost every contractor should be RAISING rates because everything is so expensive these days. The cost of food goes up because of gas prices why doesn't your hourly rate?

I don't see the Apple company cutting the costs of Iphones in half because it's a tough economy.
 

satcom

Senior Member
I know that I'll catch guff for this, I always do, and I know I'll hear about what it cost's to run a business, but I keep telling people that the days of $150 hr service calls are gone. Now I've heard all the stories about guys thinking that their phones had been disconnected because it stopped ringing to guys who say that they never slowed down and I couldn't start to tell you what the reasons were for either one.


The $150 service calls may be a thing of the past in your area, but over the past 3 years, in this area, the $150 guys have been putting all the small guys out of business, and it may be the $150 guys ad's and marketing in wide areas, it seems they need the $150 to 200 an hour flat rates to feed the ad expenses, which insure them plenty of phone calls in return, in my area alone almost all of the small guys are out, and we now have 3 large flat rate big number guys running the show. The few small guys that are still around are working for beer money or hopes of making a few bucks on the side. after all these side job and part time guys are not dummies, they are asking and getting the higher rates, that the big guys are asking.`
 

cowboyjwc

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Simi Valley, CA
Why do you think that? Is the cost of living on this planet getting cheaper and I don't know about it?

We are contractors we get discounts on fuel, food, cell phone rates, tools etc... that I don't know about?

If anything almost every contractor should be RAISING rates because everything is so expensive these days. The cost of food goes up because of gas prices why doesn't your hourly rate?

I don't see the Apple company cutting the costs of Iphones in half because it's a tough economy.

Look you're preaching to the choir here, I'm in the process of losing my house right now, because I took a 5% pay cut in order to keep my job, but none of the local utilities must have gotten the memo since, everything else has increased. I'm just telling you that I'm an electrician too so I don't need you, but if I did, I couldn't afford you, even at $55 an hour.

Don't by you Iphones when they first come out, you'ld be surprised how much cheaper they are a year later. My cell phone makes phone calls and takes pictures and half the time I forget it takes pictures.
 

nhfire77

Senior Member
Location
NH
Why do you think that? Is the cost of living on this planet getting cheaper and I don't know about it?

We are contractors we get discounts on fuel, food, cell phone rates, tools etc... that I don't know about?

If anything almost every contractor should be RAISING rates because everything is so expensive these days. The cost of food goes up because of gas prices why doesn't your hourly rate?

I don't see the Apple company cutting the costs of Iphones in half because it's a tough economy.

You are right. There is a perverse feeling all over the country that blue collar is cheap work and anything to the contrary is a lie conjured up by the liberal media, trade unions and socialists. Or something like that, and that is not a political rant, I am very non partisan. It pains me to see my prices beat back. Everyone's cost of living is going up, so they (your customers) need to reduce expenses, but still buy electrical services and cannot imagine paying today's prices. They want 10 years ago prices. Its amazing how cheap folks have got (of course they were cheap before, but its worse now).

OTOH, I have a small contingency of well paying clients that consistently have work for us. Its seeking those out that lead to success. There are plenty of other ways of course, but that works for me.

Since were on the topic of raising prices, other than "adding value" how do you get across price increases? Trying to have a cost of living and inflation conversation with a potential customer is a losing arguement.
 

Fulthrotl

~Autocorrect is My Worst Enema.~
"I don't know what's going on but they are not creating any jobs for me around here."

Any comments more than welcome, (that's why i posted). Hope y'all r doin better than i am.

ok, you asked.....
most of what i'm gonna say doesn't have to do with market development. it's way more
important than that.

i try to pay attention to what a person says, and when something stands
out, and hits me in the eye, bring it to their attention. sometimes it's appreciated,
sometimes it is not.

first and foremost, who are "they" and why do "they" have to do anything for you?
why did you decide to make "them" into a god for you?

if you are depending on anything other than yourself, you are set for a huge disappointment.

without getting all preachy or self righteous here, the second thing i'm gonna hit you
between the eyes with is this:

"it is done unto you, as you believe."

you don't have a problem with lack of customers, you have a problem with lack of gratitude.
the symptom of that lack is that everything dries up, IN YOUR PERCEPTION, and you are
drowning in a lake of water. everyone gets "yours", and you are bitter, angry, and feel cheated.

one of the replies here posted something found on a painting forum. it was spot on. and all you
said was how it didn't apply to you, and picked it apart. i'm happy it was posted, 'cause it sure
applied to me.

if you have the balls to do something other than complain how "they" aren't getting you "yours",
i have two suggestions:

sit down with sheet of paper, or open up a text file on the computer, it doesn't really matter.

list EVERYTHING you can find in your life, personal or in business, that you can be grateful for.
i don't care what it is, write it down.

every.single.thing.

when that list is filled out a bit, call up a friend, and tell them, out loud, what you are grateful for.

when that is done, go out with a dry erase marker, in your favorite color, and write on the inside
of you windshield, how much you want to net in the two remaining weeks of April. it doesn't matter
how much. what matters is if you can honestly believe that you can earn that much.

write it in 2" high letters on the inside of the windsheld, so you have to look thru it, driving down
the road. then go on about your day, doing whatever you need to do.

in my experience, the money will show up.

or, you can post a rebuttal here, telling me i'm full of poop.

but what if it works? what do you have to lose?
 

Strife

Senior Member
I know that I'll catch guff for this, I always do, and I know I'll hear about what it cost's to run a business, but I keep telling people that the days of $150 hr service calls are gone. Now I've heard all the stories about guys thinking that their phones had been disconnected because it stopped ringing to guys who say that they never slowed down and I couldn't start to tell you what the reasons were for either one.

Well, you asked for it.
If the days of 150/hr for a service call are gone, why aren't the days of 4 trillion government budget gone? We're all expected to tighten our belts except our government. NO, our government needs MORE, and MORE, and MORE money. I don't see my fees dropping. Everything cost more nowadays, and what the government takes it's not small change. No offense, but (coming from a "public employee"), sounds like you're advising us to "eat cake".
I mean all forms of government have an easy solution:"RAISE TAXES, RAISE FEES". But we're supposed to just pay more and charge less.
Let's see, house remodel, electrical +/- 15K, around thousand dollar for the electrical permit. That's for...let's say 1-2 hrs clerical, 3 hrs for 3 inspections(rough, service, final) and 2-3 hrs plan review(took me 4 hrs to do the drawings, can't be more than 2-3 hrs to do plan review). So, a thousand dollars for 6-8 hrs: 125-155/hr.
But hey, it's ok for the government to charge 120-150 an hr, we're just supposed to eat cake.
 

petersonra

Senior Member
Location
Northern illinois
Occupation
engineer
The most successful remodeling contractor around here for many years was also by far the most expensive. They survived by advertising, and were very good at getting business. the work was not real good that they did, but most of the people who bought it probably did not know any different. They had a good jingle and lots of TV ads.

They probably would have still been successful today except one of the co-owners murdered the other co-owner with a hammer one night.

They were often 3x the price of other contractors that did far better work.
 

satcom

Senior Member
Look you're preaching to the choir here, I'm in the process of losing my house right now, because I took a 5% pay cut in order to keep my job, but none of the local utilities must have gotten the memo since, everything else has increased. I'm just telling you that I'm an electrician too so I don't need you, but if I did, I couldn't afford you, even at $55 an hour.

Don't by you Iphones when they first come out, you'ld be surprised how much cheaper they are a year later. My cell phone makes phone calls and takes pictures and half the time I forget it takes pictures.

The utility has all the same problems every business has their operating and overhead expense are up every year, so they have to pass them on to the customers, or run the utility into the ground, the utility stock holders will not give the utility the equity they need to grow and continue in business if they n't make a profit, but even utilities have to cut back in tough times, but with the green people pushing to shut down on carbon emissions, cost will skyrocket for all the utility companies, yes John, I also find it difficult to budget for all my bills.
 
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