grounding electrode conductor

[popmor]

If bonding the water pipe is almost impossible to get the GEC to there. Can you run the GEC in with feeders from the main disc to the distribution panel that is near the water line?

 

[pete m.]

First, does this water line qualify as a grounding electrode or are you only making a bonding connection?

If it is a grounding electrode routing the GEC in the way you describe could make 250.64(E) your enemy...

(E) Enclosures for Grounding Electrode Conductors.
Ferrous metal enclosures for grounding electrode conductors
shall be electrically continuous from the point of attachment
to cabinets or equipment to the grounding electrode
and shall be securely fastened to the ground clamp or
fitting. Nonferrous metal enclosures shall not be required to
be electrically continuous. Ferrous metal enclosures that are
not physically continuous from cabinets or equipment to
the grounding electrode shall be made electrically continuous
by bonding each end of the raceway or enclosure to the
grounding electrode conductor. Bonding methods in compliance
with 250.92(B) for installations at service equipment locations
and with 250.92(B)(2) through (B)(4) for other than
service equipment locations shall apply at each end and to all
intervening ferrous raceways, boxes, and enclosures between
the cabinets or equipment and the grounding electrode.........


Pete

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I don't know of any reason you couldn't run the gec in with the feeder as long as the gec is not a solid conductor and any bonding is done where it is required.

 

[jumper]

I don't know of any reason you couldn't run the gec in with the feeder as long as the gec is not a solid conductor and any bonding is done where it is required.

Why can't the GEC be a solid conductor?

I thought 310.3 did not apply to GECs because of 250.62.

 

[acrwc10]

Why can't the GEC be a solid conductor?

I thought 310.3 did not apply to GECs because of 250.62.

Good luck pulling it in a conduit.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Why can't the GEC be a solid conductor?

I thought 310.3 did not apply to GECs because of 250.62.

Where in 250.62 does it state that the solid gec is allowed in a raceway. It states the gec may be solid but I don't see that as permission to install it in a raceway.

 

[acrwc10]

Where in 250.62 does it state that the solid gec is allowed in a raceway. It states the gec may be solid but I don't see that as permission to install it in a raceway.

Where does it say you can't? (just playing delivs advocate)
Lots of times we have to run a #4 solid down from the main service to the water line in a conduit to "protect it from phyisical damage" not my choice.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Look at 310.106(C) in the 2011 and 310.3 in the 2008

 

[Dennis Alwon]

The 2011 has clarified this.

(C) Stranded Conductors. Where installed in raceways, conductors 8 AWG and larger, not specifically permitted or required elsewhere in this Code to be solid, shall be stranded.

 

[jumper]

Good luck pulling it in a conduit.

Ya just need the right type of tugger.

 

[acrwc10]

could you fit that though the door to the electrical room?

 

[jumper]

Where in 250.62 does it state that the solid gec is allowed in a raceway. It states the gec may be solid but I don't see that as permission to install it in a raceway.

Where does it say I cannot? The exception seems to allow it.

specifically permitted

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Where does it say I cannot? The exception seems to allow it.

250 does not say you cannot but 310 does say you cannot unless it is specifically allowed elsewhere. Show me where 250 says you can install a solid gec in a raceway.

 

[jumper]

250 does not say you cannot but 310 does say you cannot unless it is specifically allowed elsewhere. Show me where 250 says you can install a solid gec in a raceway.

250.62 says it can be solid and this says I can put it in a raceway

250.64(B) Securing and Protection Against Physical Damage.
Where exposed, a grounding electrode conductor or its enclosure
shall be securely fastened to the surface on which it
is carried. Grounding electrode conductors shall be permitted
to be installed on or through framing members. A 4
AWG or larger copper or aluminum grounding electrode
conductor shall be protected if exposed to physical damage.
A 6 AWG grounding electrode conductor that is free from
exposure to physical damage shall be permitted to be run
along the surface of the building construction without metal
covering or protection if it is securely fastened to the construction;
otherwise, it shall be protected in rigid metal
conduit (RMC), intermediate metal conduit (IMC), rigid
polyvinyl chloride conduit (PVC), reinforced thermosetting
resin conduit (RTRC), electrical metallic tubing (EMT), or
cable armor. Grounding electrode conductors smaller than 6
AWG shall be protected in RMC, IMC, PVC, RTRC, EMT,
or cable armor.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

A sleeve is not a raceway and it still does not say if it is solid it can be in a raceway. If it indeed said a GEC could be installed in a raceway that, IMO would not include the solid wire unless it specifically stated that. 310 is still there. Circuit conductors may be solid or stranded but we know that we cannot install them in a raceway

 

[jumper]

A sleeve is not a raceway and it still does not say if it is solid it can be in a raceway. If it indeed said a GEC could be installed in a raceway that, IMO would not include the solid wire unless it specifically stated that. 310 is still there. Circuit conductors may be solid or stranded but we know that we cannot install them in a raceway

If the sleeve is conduit, or such, it is a raceway, maybe not a complete one. I do not see a definition of sleeves that precludes this.

Raceway. An enclosed channel of metal or nonmetallic materials
designed expressly for holding wires, cables, or busbars,
with additional functions as permitted in this Code.
Raceways include, but are not limited to, rigid metal conduit,
rigid nonmetallic conduit, intermediate metal conduit, liquidtight
flexible conduit, flexible metallic tubing, flexible
metal conduit, electrical nonmetallic tubing, electrical metallic
tubing, underfloor raceways, cellular concrete floor raceways,
cellular metal floor raceways, surface raceways, wireways,
and busways.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Well if that is the case, I still do not see an exception to allow solid in the conduit. If you choose to use solid then don't sleeve it. If you must sleeve it then use stranded. Again I think the definition of raceway does not mean a sleeve. A sleeve is not an enclosed channel. When it enters a jb or enclosure the raceway is enclosed.

Anyway you look at it in the OP's situation I don't think a solid wire would be used and quite frankly I don't see an issue if the raceway was just be used with the egc. When other conductors are there I think that could cause problems.

I will agree that the code is not perfectly clear on this but....

 

[jumper]

Well if that is the case, I still do not see an exception to allow solid in the conduit. If you choose to use solid then don't sleeve it. If you must sleeve it then use stranded. Again I think the definition of raceway does not mean a sleeve. A sleeve is not an enclosed channel. When it enters a jb or enclosure the raceway is enclosed.

Anyway you look at it in the OP's situation I don't think a solid wire would be used and quite frankly I don't see an issue if the raceway was just be used with the egc. When other conductors are there I think that could cause problems.

I will agree that the code is not perfectly clear on this but....

Enclosed!! I think I just lost this argument. Good job Dennis. I concede.

Raceway. An enclosed channel.....