14/2 14/3 romex in residential construction

[hurk27]

Allowed anywhere in Indiana.

With that said, the problem with rules like this is no one considers what gets plugged in, many occupants will have older appliances such as table lamps and such with lamp cord sized to small to open a 20 amp OCPD in the event of a fault, I have seen such a case and its not good.

A 20 amp OCPD will not protect a 16 or 18 awg lamp cord from overload just fault current, many older table lamps, holiday lighting, and other appliances came with 18 and even 20 awg lamp cords, even today we can sometimes see cheap China lamp cords that are too small for even a 15 amp circuit, I think the smallest cord I found and turned into UL was a 24 awg Yike's

Now I understand why a few wish to raise circuit sizing to 20 amp and 12 awg but to me it is asking for trouble where circuits feed general purpose receptacles.

We need to keep protection closer to lamp cord ratings since older lamps will be in use for a long time!

 

[infinity]

Allowed everywhere in NY that I've worked. Don't know about NYC.

Minimum in NYC is #12 AWG.

 

[vango]

Thank You my fellow Sparkologists...
I have always used #12 as a minimum, with the exception of low voltage circuits (residential). I don't really get all the controversy were having here. As the EC with a master license in TX it is my responsibility to assure design and installation of electrical is done correct with the NEC, UL, and manufacturers specifications as a minimum (to name a few). I prefer bringing more than the minimums to the table however, sometimes minimums is all the economics will muster. I have a habit of providing for the future in hopes that my clients will call me back in when their ready for more and then I get the easy money, if not, then the next sparkologist hopefully will appreciate the effort.
Calculating loads, dead batteries, and building visions,
Vango

 

[kwired]

Why run 14 when 12 is better?

Make 12 the minimum and then you can say why run 12 when 10 is better.

Didn't the NEC do a good enough job with ampacity tables, deration factors, ambient temperature adjustments?
Most of these values have remained fairly unchanged in the NEC for a long time - if they were not a good idea to be what they are enough people would have submitted proposals for change that it would have eventually been done.

NEC is not just CMP members sitting there brainstorming some ideas for things to change every three years - the changes are initiated by requests from anyone that submits them with enough substantial information to back up the reasoning for change - that is just to get a potential change rolling. Not enough substantial information for a change and the proposal dies pretty quickly.

This is also same reason why I have never really understood the point of any AHJ to make amendments in most cases. What kind of research have they done to come up with some of these amendments? What kind of process is involved to make a change to NEC? Sure the CMP's are limited number of people but they have input from potentially millions of people as compared to small handful of people typically involved in a local AHJ making a decision to make amendments.

Do we get codes that are sometimes questionable - certainly - three years later those same codes likely do see some change of some kind.

 

[Fulthrotl]

Our AHJ has not allowed 14 gage romex for decades. The Ordinance keeping the wiring method as prohibited is now being considered for removal. The pros and cons are being weighed in detail. The question is: Does your AHJ allow 14 gage romex wiring?
and can you share your location, State, county, city?

allowed in socal.

usually for lighting only, but i've seen it used for receptacles as well.

 

[jaylectricity]

Allowed everywhere near me in Massachusetts.

 

[stickboy1375]

I feel bad for the people that have to pay for this burden of only allowing 12 AWG as the minimum allowed, what a shame and waste of resources.

 

[Greg1707]

logic behind prohibition of #14

logic behind prohibition of #14

Why is NM #20 protected by a 20 amp breaker considered better (safer) than #14 protected by a 15 amp breaker? If there is a problem with the latter then there must be a problem with the former? The idea is to protect the wire by using the appropriate over current device.

BTW, outside of the kitchen, bathroom and laundry area, which require 20 amp branch circuits, what is used in the typical home that requires 20 amp?

 

[stickboy1375]

Why is NM #20 protected by a 20 amp breaker considered better (safer) than #14 protected by a 15 amp breaker? If there is a problem with the latter then there must be a problem with the former? The idea is to protect the wire by using the appropriate over current device.

BTW, outside of the kitchen, bathroom and laundry area, which require 20 amp branch circuits, what is used in the typical home that requires 20 amp?

What's used in the kitchen, bath and laundry that requires 20 amps? Take this example, you plug two 12 amp appliances into a 15 or 20 amp circuit the circuit is still going to trip... so why design and mandate such nonsense. Where ONE 12 amp appliance will work flawlessly in a 15 or 20 amp circuit. See what i'm getting at?

 

[kwired]

Why is NM #20 protected by a 20 amp breaker considered better (safer) than #14 protected by a 15 amp breaker? If there is a problem with the latter then there must be a problem with the former? The idea is to protect the wire by using the appropriate over current device.

BTW, outside of the kitchen, bathroom and laundry area, which require 20 amp branch circuits, what is used in the typical home that requires 20 amp?

Generally not much even those areas that wouldn't work on a 15 amp circuit, just that those areas typically have a higher load density than most other areas.

Have you ever seen a 120 volt household kitchen, bath, or laundry appliance with a 20 amp cord cap?

 

[GeorgeB]

Have you ever seen a 120 volt household kitchen, bath, or laundry appliance with a 20 amp cord cap?

Control engineer sticking his nose in where it doesn't belong ... how many HOUSEHOLDS have you seen with ANY 20A receptacle? MAYBE for a window air conditioner ...

I know my home, built spec in 1995 has none. I know my friend's home, built to his plans in 2007, has none ... 320A (400A) service, 7000 sq feet ...

Remember that (as long as not a single simplex receptacle) 15A receptacles are approved for 20A circuits.

PERSONALLY, I've never see a 20A cord cap on anything except the occasional air conditioner.

 

[stickboy1375]

PERSONALLY, I've never see a 20A cord cap on anything except the occasional air conditioner.

I've only seen them on treadmills.... go figure.

 

[Speshulk]

This is all a bunch of nonsense. Yet another example of trying to regulate to protect people from incompetance, much like AFIs. If a homeowner installs a breaker that is too big for the wire connected to it, it's THEIR OWN DAMNED FAULT.

If the problem is that incompetant electricians are connecting wiring that is too small for the breaker they're using, perhaps the solution is making it more difficult for these guys to do work in the first place. If you don't know enough to connect #14 to a 15 amp breaker, then you're probably not qualified to be doing ANY electrical work.

 

[kwired]

Control engineer sticking his nose in where it doesn't belong ... how many HOUSEHOLDS have you seen with ANY 20A receptacle? MAYBE for a window air conditioner ...

I know my home, built spec in 1995 has none. I know my friend's home, built to his plans in 2007, has none ... 320A (400A) service, 7000 sq feet ...

Remember that (as long as not a single simplex receptacle) 15A receptacles are approved for 20A circuits.

PERSONALLY, I've never see a 20A cord cap on anything except the occasional air conditioner.

I see 20 amp 250 volt receptacles or air conditioners but the unit usually has a 15 amp cord cap on it. Can not really recall any typical household items with 20 amp 125 volt cord caps. Do see restaurant equipment with 20 amp 125 volt cord caps and other commercial equipment at times.

I've only seen them on treadmills.... go figure.

Just why would a treadmill need a 20 amp plug:? Do people use them as conveyors? The idea of an exercise machine is for the user to be the one that burns calories. Majority of these maybe only need 1/6 hp max. Or do they have other equipment besides a belt?

This is all a bunch of nonsense. Yet another example of trying to regulate to protect people from incompetance, much like AFIs. If a homeowner installs a breaker that is too big for the wire connected to it, it's THEIR OWN DAMNED FAULT.

If the problem is that incompetant electricians are connecting wiring that is too small for the breaker they're using, perhaps the solution is making it more difficult for these guys to do work in the first place. If you don't know enough to connect #14 to a 15 amp breaker, then you're probably not qualified to be doing ANY electrical work.

More like a good electrician knows when a 15 amp breaker is necessary and when it is not. There are times when larger breaker is acceptable, like motor installations. There are some people that think it is a crime to use anything smaller than 12AWG to supply a motor, but if conductor ampacity is not exceeded or using 14 results in excessive voltage drop that is simply not true.

 

[480sparky]

...............This is also same reason why I have never really understood the point of any AHJ to make amendments in most cases. What kind of research have they done to come up with some of these amendments? What kind of process is involved to make a change to NEC? ........

Am am of the mind that anyone amending the NEC should submit thier amendment(s), along with the attendant documentation, to the NFPA.

 

[John120/240]

Am am of the mind that anyone amending the NEC should submit thier amendment(s), along with the attendant documentation, to the NFPA.

Not allowed in Oklahoma City, Oklahoma. I am not aware of any other jurisdictions abolishing it. I have seen AHJ's allow 14awg for switch legs on 20 amp circuits, I wouldn't do it though.

Did OKC petition the NFPA to disallow 14 AWG ? I don't know for sure, but my gut says OKC

just does their own thing. In another thread about AFCI's Wayne-hurk27 states that Indiana

has omitted requirements for AFCI. Did Indiana consult with NFPA ? Probably not. Does Indiana

have a higher percentage of home fires vs other states ? This reminds me of speed limits.

Eastern states had a maximum on interstates, Nevada & Montana were safe & prudent my .02

 

[kwired]

Did OKC petition the NFPA to disallow 14 AWG ? I don't know for sure, but my gut says OKC

just does their own thing. In another thread about AFCI's Wayne-hurk27 states that Indiana

has omitted requirements for AFCI. Did Indiana consult with NFPA ? Probably not. Does Indiana

have a higher percentage of home fires vs other states ? This reminds me of speed limits.

Eastern states had a maximum on interstates, Nevada & Montana were safe & prudent my .02

Nebraska did amend out AFCI's each code until the 2008 was adopted. This is one place where I feel the amendment was not a bad idea, but most of the time I don't see why any jurisdiction should make any amendments. I think that Nebraska Electrical board felt that there was a lot of controversy over AFCI's and wanted to see what direction the AFCI went in future codes, as well as see what kind of problems people have with the AFCI's. It was believed to be kind of a push by manufacturers to get this product in the code before it was really proven to work (some will still argue whether or not they work but that is for a different discussion).

I take back what I first said, AFCI's were amended out until about the time when 2011 normally would have been adopted - there was a lot of controversy about adopting 2011 by homebuilders associations that held up the passing of adopting 2011 in the State Legislature. State electrical division eventually said we are no longer going to amend out AFCI's so sometime during the time 2005 NEC was still in force we removed the AFCI amendments- this probably happend sometime late during the 2009 calendar year. We only used the 2008 NEC for about a year or so because of all this - most cycles the new code is usually made law sometime between March and May of the year of a new NEC.

 

[hurk27]

Am am of the mind that anyone amending the NEC should submit their amendment(s), along with the attendant documentation, to the NFPA.

You know that many of these locally adopted type codes are often adopted without no thought as to whether or not they would stand up in a court of law, many don't even have any scientific backing required or the economic cost burden required by law to adopt a code has not even been thought about.

There are many regulations that a laws must pass before an ordnance can be adopted into law, if these regulations haven't been met then the ordnance is non-enforceable and can be challenged.

Over the years I have seen many codes adopted on the "just because I think it's a good idea" type requirement put into laws that could be beat in any court.

Before our state adopted state wide building codes this was the norm around here, it was a nightmare trying to follow each and every county, city or towns wishes, and in some cases it depended on which inspector you got, imposable to not get a red tag when you couldn't read an inspectors mind as to what they wanted, so when I got hooked up with the state building department, that was one of the first agendas we took on was to get state wide codes, and if anyone here has the connections in their state to do the same they should also try to get that done as many states have no reasons for having a different code to follow in each city or county.

One good reason to adopt state wide building codes is to stop the corruption of building enforcement making it imposable to get a job to pass unless you pay, while they wont admit to this it can be clearly a good reason to do so.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

You know that many of these locally adopted type codes are often adopted without no thought as to whether or not they would stand up in a court of law, many don't even have any scientific backing required or the economic cost burden required by law to adopt a code has not even been thought about.

As far as I know there is nothing that requires an economic analysis or cost benefit analysis of any state or local law or ordiance.

 

[hurk27]

As far as I know there is nothing that requires an economic analysis or cost benefit analysis of any state or local law or ordiance.

Wow here there is an economic cost burden analysis that has to be presented on any law set to be adopted by the house or senate, it is in every house bill presented if it applies to the bill. I'll see if I can did one up that shows it.