Fire Pump Conductors

[Alwayslearningelec]

A few questions:

A fire pump is fed from both a normal and em switchboard to the fire pump ATS(located at the fire pump).

1. According to 695.6 the wiring methods( 1,2&3) that they list and must used would be from the switchboard?? That would be the final disconnecting means, correct?
2. Can AL conductors be used for the fire pump? I don't see that listed anywhere.

Thanks.

 

[Alwayslearningelec]

Wow, I guess the message is for me not to post anymore or people have grown tired of me. I felt it coming as my last few post have pretty much been ignored. I really don't think it is deserved although some of my posts have been very vague I though this one was ok and I did some research.

 

[Gac66610]

i'll reply, its just an area i am unfamiliar with

so i read to learn

 

[gadfly56]

A few questions:

A fire pump is fed from both a normal and em switchboard to the fire pump ATS(located at the fire pump).

1. According to 695.6 the wiring methods( 1,2&3) that they list and must used would be from the switchboard?? That would be the final disconnecting means, correct?
2. Can AL conductors be used for the fire pump? I don't see that listed anywhere.

Thanks.

Fire pumps are troublesome creatures. I believe that the wring methods you are pointing to are basically on the load side of the (allowed) disconnect at the service entrance tapped ahead of the main switchboard. Or in the case of the generator, a disconnect which is tapped ahead of the EM switchboard and sufficiently remote from it and identified nine ways from Sunday so you won't accidently turn it off. Then you run all the way to the fire pump room in that copper clad stuff (Raychem MC) or RHW from Draka or Raychem RHW from Tyco or Vitalink MC. Take your pick. If the fire pump room has a 2 hour fire rating, you can switch over to regular MC. If you tap at the service entrance and don't provide a disconnecting means there, it's 2 inches of concrete all the way. (All based on the 2008 NEC).

I don't know about using aluminum. All the data sheets I've run across show copper as the conductor.

 

[Fulthrotl]

Wow, I guess the message is for me not to post anymore or people have grown tired of me. I felt it coming as my last few post have pretty much been ignored. I really don't think it is deserved although some of my posts have been very vague I though this one was ok and I did some research.

this is an open forum.
i will speak only for myself, as this is my opinion only.

i see that this is your one thousand, six hundred and fortieth post.

i went back and looked at how many posts you have started, and the cutoff is at 200,
altho i suspect there might be a few more than that.

so, just for grins, i looked at 100 posts, and the amount of replies to them.
posts 101~200 had 770 replies.

this forum is based on the principle that pretty much any question that can be
asked, someone here has firsthand experience with a solution to it, and we
all might benefit a bit by the discussion.

it's also based on the "bring what you have, take what you need" approach.

of those 1,640 posts you made, how many of them were of YOU helping someone
ELSE with THEIR problem?

just a thought.....

 

[Fulthrotl]

A few questions:

A fire pump is fed from both a normal and em switchboard to the fire pump ATS(located at the fire pump).

1. According to 695.6 the wiring methods( 1,2&3) that they list and must used would be from the switchboard?? That would be the final disconnecting means, correct?
2. Can AL conductors be used for the fire pump? I don't see that listed anywhere.

Thanks.

common sense would indicate that approved means and methods might provide
some insight here... the handbook does not specifically speak to aluminum conductors,
but one of the common means for feeding fire pumps is MI cable, which is ungodly expensive.

would you think that someone going to the trouble of making a COPPER JACKETED cable
would put aluminum wire inside it?

wikipedia has some information about MI cable..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mineral-insulated_copper-clad_cable

my thought is that for a critical application, why on earth would you consider using aluminum
wire? the raceway must be either outside the building, or encased with 2" of concrete.

aluminum melts at relatively low temperatures compared to copper... 1220 degrees VS.1983 degrees.

from the NEC handbook:

"The difference between a 2-hour fire rating of an electrical circuit, such as a
conduit with wires, and a 2-hour fire- resistance rating of a structural member,
such as a wall, is that at the end of a 2-hour fire test on an electrical conduit
with wires, the circuit must function electrically (no short circuits, grounds, or
opens are permitted). The circuit and its insulation must be intact and electrically
functioning. A wall subjected to a 2-hour fire-resistance test must only prevent
a fire from passing through or past the wall, without regard to damage to the wall.
All fire ratings and fire-resistance ratings are based on the assumption that the
structural supports for the assembly are not impaired by the effects of the fire.

The UL 2004 Fire Resistance Directory, Volume 2, de- scribes three categories
of products that can be used in the fire protection of electrical circuits for fire
pumps: various electrical circuit protective systems (FHIT), electrical circuit
protective materials (FHIY), and fire-resistive cables (FHJR). (The four-letter
codes in parentheses are the UL product category guide designations.) For
information on electrical circuit protective systems, see UL Subject 1724, Fire
Tests for Electrical Circuit Protective Systems."

 

[ptonsparky]

Not quite 40 years in the trade and this is as close as I have gotten to a wiring a fire pump. Still want some help?

 

[Alwayslearningelec]

i'll reply, its just an area i am unfamiliar with

so i read to learn

I feel better.....

 

[Alwayslearningelec]

Fire pumps are troublesome creatures. I believe that the wring methods you are pointing to are basically on the load side of the (allowed) disconnect at the service entrance tapped ahead of the main switchboard. Or in the case of the generator, a disconnect which is tapped ahead of the EM switchboard and sufficiently remote from it and identified nine ways from Sunday so you won't accidently turn it off. Then you run all the way to the fire pump room in that copper clad stuff (Raychem MC) or RHW from Draka or Raychem RHW from Tyco or Vitalink MC. Take your pick. If the fire pump room has a 2 hour fire rating, you can switch over to regular MC. If you tap at the service entrance and don't provide a disconnecting means there, it's 2 inches of concrete all the way. (All based on the 2008 NEC).

I don't know about using aluminum. All the data sheets I've run across show copper as the conductor.

Thanks for the help. They show the feederd coming from both service switchboard switch and EM switchboard(fed from generator) run to an ATS @ the fire pump which feeds the fire pump. I thought that the feeder from the service switchboard has to be tapped ahead(line side tap) of the switch and can't be feed from the switch in the switchboard.

 

[Alwayslearningelec]

this is an open forum.
i will speak only for myself, as this is my opinion only.

i see that this is your one thousand, six hundred and fortieth post.

i went back and looked at how many posts you have started, and the cutoff is at 200,
altho i suspect there might be a few more than that.

so, just for grins, i looked at 100 posts, and the amount of replies to them.
posts 101~200 had 770 replies.

this forum is based on the principle that pretty much any question that can be
asked, someone here has firsthand experience with a solution to it, and we
all might benefit a bit by the discussion.

it's also based on the "bring what you have, take what you need" approach.

of those 1,640 posts you made, how many of them were of YOU helping someone
ELSE with THEIR problem?

just a thought.....

Yes and I appreciate every bit of help and have said many times if there was ANY way I could give back I would. I even asked if I could donate somewhere. I am ALL about helping others in life and have actually done a lot of volunteer work(not that it matters here) but I think it is pretty obvious from my questions that most of the questions asked by other are beyond my knowledge so hence the reason for my lack of replies. I would reply in a second of I thought I could help give an answer. THanks.

 

[Alwayslearningelec]

common sense would indicate that approved means and methods might provide
some insight here... the handbook does not specifically speak to aluminum conductors,
but one of the common means for feeding fire pumps is MI cable, which is ungodly expensive.

would you think that someone going to the trouble of making a COPPER JACKETED cable
would put aluminum wire inside it?

wikipedia has some information about MI cable..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mineral-insulated_copper-clad_cable

my thought is that for a critical application, why on earth would you consider using aluminum
wire? the raceway must be either outside the building, or encased with 2" of concrete.

aluminum melts at relatively low temperatures compared to copper... 1220 degrees VS.1983 degrees.

from the NEC handbook:

"The difference between a 2-hour fire rating of an electrical circuit, such as a
conduit with wires, and a 2-hour fire- resistance rating of a structural member,
such as a wall, is that at the end of a 2-hour fire test on an electrical conduit
with wires, the circuit must function electrically (no short circuits, grounds, or
opens are permitted). The circuit and its insulation must be intact and electrically
functioning. A wall subjected to a 2-hour fire-resistance test must only prevent
a fire from passing through or past the wall, without regard to damage to the wall.
All fire ratings and fire-resistance ratings are based on the assumption that the
structural supports for the assembly are not impaired by the effects of the fire.

The UL 2004 Fire Resistance Directory, Volume 2, de- scribes three categories
of products that can be used in the fire protection of electrical circuits for fire
pumps: various electrical circuit protective systems (FHIT), electrical circuit
protective materials (FHIY), and fire-resistive cables (FHJR). (The four-letter
codes in parentheses are the UL product category guide designations.) For
information on electrical circuit protective systems, see UL Subject 1724, Fire
Tests for Electrical Circuit Protective Systems."

Thanks.