Shunt Trip Breakers?

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squaredan

Senior Member
Location
Pennsylvania
HI Could someone tell me what use a shunt trip breaker would be used for? One of the building we service has a shunt trip breaker used for the main shunt off for the elevator..We had a problem with the fire alarm today going off due to a bad smoke head and every time the fire alarm went off it would trip the main and stop the elevator in its tracks leaving people trapped, NOT GOOD! I have heard Shunt trips used for elevators but this has to be wrong set up..Alarm guy changed out smoke detector and said he never see that used for elevators..We have the Elevator Co. meeting us early tomorrow..If anyone has any answers I could us the help..Thanks



Dan
 

DARUSA

Senior Member
Location
New York City
A shunt trip breaker is usually use when in the elevator machine room or in the elevator shaft a sprinkler head is present to protec energyce electrical part became in contact with water in the event of a fire!!!! Probably your problem is a wron set up on the fire alarm system because if I not wrong it have to be trip whe a flow switch on the sprinkler system shows that water is going out not smoke !!!! Also after the elevator recall the fire alarm system will trip it after the elevator is on safe position , first or second floor !!! Thx
 

mike7330

Senior Member
Location
North America
some of the codes for your shunt trip breakers
Shunt trips should be installed with heat detectors not smoke detectors.....

2.8 Equipment in Hoistways and Machine Rooms
2.8.3.3.2? means shall be provided to automatically disconnect the main line powersupply to the affected elevator upon or prior tothe application of water from the sprinklers located in the machine room or in the hoistway more than 24 in. above the pit floor.

37
NFPA 72 -2010
21.4 Elevator Shutdown
21.4.2If heat detectors are used to shut down elevator power prior to sprinkler operation, they shall be placed within 24 in. of each sprinkler headand be installed in accordance with the requirements of Chapter 17.
 

nhfire77

Senior Member
Location
NH
In addition to what was already mentioned: You should also ensure the shunt trip control voltage is monitored by the fire alarm. In the event the control voltage breaker is shut off, a supervisory alarm would be generated on the fire alarm panel. This is an often overlooked part.

There will not be an issue with building power loss either, the fire alar
will go into trouble in the event of power loss. The supervisory alarm can be set to be local only, unless required to be reported, ie UL certificated system or local requirements.
 
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squaredan

Senior Member
Location
Pennsylvania
some of the codes for your shunt trip breakers
Shunt trips should be installed with heat detectors not smoke detectors.....

Sorry it was a Heat detector Not a smoke detector, it was a heat detector in the Rite-Aid Store of the building that was tripping the alarm..This building has offices on second and 5 stores on first..


From the info you guys have giving me I know now that the this Alarm and Elevator set up wired wrong and is wired wrong on the alarm side... Thanks all the info
 

nhfire77

Senior Member
Location
NH
Ok, reread what you said, so a heat in rite aid tripped the shunt? Yea that's bad.
 
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steve66

Senior Member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
Engineer
Yes, the shunt trip should be tied to a heat detector - not a smoke detector. And there is a particular temp. setting that should be used. I do not think a "rate of rise" function should be used - just a particular heat setting. the idea is to just shunt trip the elevator before the sprinkler in the shaft or in the machine room goes off.

There should also be a time delay before the shunt trip. The elevator should go to a landing and open the doors before the shunt trip goes off!!!
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Shunts are used for turning off the gas line in kitchens too.

I think I know what you are getting at but don't think your wording was what you are after. Shunt trip in kitchens is used to kill power to electric cooking appliances if the fire suppression system is actuated. Gas line may be shut off if it is controlled by an electric valve on the circuit supplied by the shunt trip breaker. Often the gas valve is mechanically connected to the fire suppression system.


Shunt trip breakers can be used pretty much anytime you want an "emergency off" application where it is acceptable or even required to manually reset the condition. I did a CT scanner installation at a local medical care facility, we had an emergency stop button near the door to the room (and I think at the operators station as well) to operate a shunt trip for the breaker for the x-ray generator equipment.
 

nhfire77

Senior Member
Location
NH
There should also be a time delay before the shunt trip. The elevator should go to a landing and open the doors before the shunt trip goes off!!!

Got a code reference for that? I'm no elevator guy but, thats not true everywhere, at least three states I'm aware of. Some will have a small UPS inside the elevator controller, just to do what you are talking about, but the shunt trips immediately.

The heat can be a rate of rise/fixed temp combo, the fixed temp element must be rated to alarm under the sprinkler heads activation temp.
 
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Strife

Senior Member
HI Could someone tell me what use a shunt trip breaker would be used for? One of the building we service has a shunt trip breaker used for the main shunt off for the elevator..We had a problem with the fire alarm today going off due to a bad smoke head and every time the fire alarm went off it would trip the main and stop the elevator in its tracks leaving people trapped, NOT GOOD! I have heard Shunt trips used for elevators but this has to be wrong set up..Alarm guy changed out smoke detector and said he never see that used for elevators..We have the Elevator Co. meeting us early tomorrow..If anyone has any answers I could us the help..Thanks



Dan
The fire alarm is wired wrong.
The only thing to trip the elevator should be the heat detector in the elevator room. Do you want melted wires crossing each others in an elevator controller? Enough said.
And if remember correctly it'd have to be a hardwire from the heat detector contact, not through the fire alarm.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Got a code reference for that? I'm no elevator guy but, thats not true everywhere, at least three states I'm aware of. Some will have a small UPS inside the elevator controller, just to do what you are talking about, but the shunt trips immediately.

The heat can be a rate of rise/fixed temp combo, the fixed temp element must be rated to alarm under the sprinkler heads activation temp.
I know nothing about codes for elevators but would think that any codes would want the elevator to stop in a position where passengers can easily get out if at all possible upon any kind of failure. I could easily see that meaning a backup system with limited ability at the very least. Limited ability meaning it will be able to move the car to the nearest normal access level for evacuation and not necessarily allowing full normal operating cababilities.
 

guschash

Senior Member
Location
Ohio
We used shunt trip breakers for safety. In the glass plant I worked for we had a couple hundred 400amp transformers mounted above the bath ( glass flowing in called bath ) transformers heat the glass. If someone opened the transformer door the shunt would trip the breaker.

gus
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
I know nothing about codes for elevators but would think that any codes would want the elevator to stop in a position where passengers can easily get out if at all possible upon any kind of failure. I could easily see that meaning a backup system with limited ability at the very least. Limited ability meaning it will be able to move the car to the nearest normal access level for evacuation and not necessarily allowing full normal operating cababilities.

The elevator lobby smoke detectors drive the elevator to the primary or secondary floors

The machine room / top of shaft heat shunts the power if that is what the AHJ wants.

We disabled that in many RI elevators per the elevator inspectors.
 

nhfire77

Senior Member
Location
NH
I know nothing about codes for elevators but would think that any codes would want the elevator to stop in a position where passengers can easily get out if at all possible upon any kind of failure. I could easily see that meaning a backup system with limited ability at the very least. Limited ability meaning it will be able to move the car to the nearest normal access level for evacuation and not necessarily allowing full normal operating cababilities.

If you read that article, it reasons that killing the power just before (heat detector tripped) or concurrently with waterflow is desired. It is an article worth reading if you intergrate fire alarms and elevators.

From page 15 of the link I posted:

The annex text suggesting a time delay before power removal was added in 2002 and is not a requirement. The text was proposed as a requirement, but moved by the technical committee to the annex so that it would only be a suggestion. However, the technical committee statement in the Report on Proposals14 indicated that their intent was to require immediate power shutdown. Hence, the suggested text is in direct conflict with the intent of the body of the code. The submitter’s substantiation was that the delay would minimize the chance of an occupant being trapped in the elevator. The elevator safety task group that drafted the original framework and the coordinated requirements in the various codes and standards debated the relative risks involved with trying to ensure safe parking of the elevator car before removing power. The elevator experts convinced the group that the application of water before removing power can be a higher risk than the possibility of entrapment – assuming compliance with the requirements for initiating Phase I recall by smoke detectors. The group was also concluded that operation of a sprinkler in a machine space or hoistway (particularly at the top) would most likely mean that there was a fire, which could cause unpredictable operation of electronic controllers with results that might be worst than the risk of entrapment. The idea of delaying the water discharge until it could be confirmed that the elevator was parked has also been debated and rejected in part due to the increased complexity adding additional failure mechanisms as well as the unpredictable effects of the unsuppressed fire on the elevator equipment.
The use of time delays and pre-action sprinkler systems would require considerable engineering and engineering coordination of four systems: 1) elevator controllers, 2) sprinklers, 3) fire alarm and
4) electrical. The problem with these proposed methods is that there are no data on the actual statistical need, the failure and success rates and the various hazards that might be created. To some extent, this is also true of the more simple approach currently required by the coordinated set of codes and standards. Nevertheless, the elevator safety experts, fire protection engineers, fire alarm and sprinkler experts, fire fighters, code experts and others who have worked on the coordinated codes and standards have settled on the simpler approach.
 
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kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Again I know nothing about elevators, but could agree with immediately shutting it down if the fire was in the elevator shaft. I also agree that this can be complicated - that is some of the reason why elevators are not exactly cheap. We have had schools, courthouses, other buildings around here the past 20 years that opted to build new facilities instead of installing an elevator in existing facilities (as they were being mandated to do something about compliance with ADA in most of these cases). They could often build a very nice facility for price it would take to add an elevator to what they had. Keep in mind they were only replacing two or three level buildings and had space to build one level facilities. High rise within a city there may not be that kind of choice to make.
 

nhfire77

Senior Member
Location
NH
Again I know nothing about elevators, but could agree with immediately shutting it down if the fire was in the elevator shaft. I also agree that this can be complicated - that is some of the reason why elevators are not exactly cheap. We have had schools, courthouses, other buildings around here the past 20 years that opted to build new facilities instead of installing an elevator in existing facilities (as they were being mandated to do something about compliance with ADA in most of these cases). They could often build a very nice facility for price it would take to add an elevator to what they had. Keep in mind they were only replacing two or three level buildings and had space to build one level facilities. High rise within a city there may not be that kind of choice to make.

Competely agree with your sentiment. In fact that paper acknowledges the complexity and encourages collaboration, simplicity when possible.
 

squaredan

Senior Member
Location
Pennsylvania
Thank you everyone for your input, I have gained alot of knowledge with this job.. Thank you nhfire77 for the pdf file I have been reading it on my lunch breaks, great read... I am also passing it to the fire security guys they really didnt know much about this problem.


Dan
 
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