New models of AFCI

[ptonsparky]

My CH wholesaler tells me they have tbe new & improved models of CH & BR style AFCIs on hand. Complete with diagnostic indicating lights to tell you the type of fault. He is giving me a BR style to test in my house. I have high hopes.

 

[Speshulk]

Good luck. Hopefully they've improved. I installed some BR AFCI's a couple years ago that were so sensitive that plugging in a simple outlet tester tripped them.

 

[Gac66610]

My CH wholesaler tells me they have tbe new & improved models of CH & BR style AFCIs on hand. Complete with diagnostic indicating lights to tell you the type of fault. He is giving me a BR style to test in my house. I have high hopes.

yet another "beta" tester

 

[GUNNING]

2 pole AFCI'S

2 pole AFCI'S

Saw my first 2 pole AFCI listed on the Big Orange Box store web site.

Only about $20 more than the single pole.

No more tying 3 wire circuits together.

 

[templdl]

yet another "beta" tester

i was a Beta tester for the C-H AFCI back in the late '90s when they first can out. Out tripped within weeks after the installation an after wringing out the circuit I identifed an EGC where the electricain had caused the bare EGC of a duplex to touch the neutral screw. I straightened that out an 12 years later I have not had a single trip since. I believe that I have (4) installed and would have liked to install (4) 15a circuits but they were home run circuits puting an end to that idea.

 

[ActionDave]

i was a Beta tester for the C-H AFCI back in the late '90s when they first can out. Out tripped within weeks after the installation an after wringing out the circuit I identifed an EGC where the electricain had caused the bare EGC of a duplex to touch the neutral screw. I straightened that out an 12 years later I have not had a single trip since. I believe that I have (4) installed and would have liked to install (4) 15a circuits but they were home run circuits puting an end to that idea.

Great. The ground fault detection in the breaker worked. Did you ever test them to see if they tripped on any thing that invloved an arc?

 

[Gac66610]

My CH wholesaler tells me they have tbe new & improved models of CH & BR style AFCIs on hand. Complete with diagnostic indicating lights to tell you the type of fault. He is giving me a BR style to test in my house. I have high hopes.

atleast with them coming out with new and improved, they are recognizing that there are issues with them
i hope all manufacturers follow suit

 

[Little Bill]

Saw my first 2 pole AFCI listed on the Big Orange Box store web site.

Only about $20 more than the single pole.

No more tying 3 wire circuits together.

Huh!:?

I thought that was the reason for the 2-pole, so you could use them on a MWBC.

 

[stevenje]

My CH wholesaler tells me they have tbe new & improved models of CH & BR style AFCIs on hand.

"Also available in lemon scent."

 

[templdl]

Some thoughts

Some thoughts

Great. The ground fault detection in the breaker worked. Did you ever test them to see if they tripped on any thing that invloved an arc?

Ya. Right!! Are you serious? What type of controlled test that would emulate and arc would you suggest that would be appropriate and safe? Or is this one of these "don't do this at home" experiments. I would put this right next to tripping a breaker using a light switch to short the circuit.

I know all too well the dynamics of an arc as they are unpredictable. I was a breaker application engineer for a large manufacturer and knew one of the designers personally. One of the biggest challenges that they had was to be soothsayer is the algorithms that were necessary to program the AFCI to recognize and also avoid nuisance tripping. Can it ever be assured that an AFCI will respond to any and all variations of arcing?

After a quick search can up with this:
National Electrical Code
The National Electrical Code specifically defines and mandates the installation of AFCIs. In the 1999 edition of the NEC?, Section 210.12 required that dwelling unit bedrooms have AFCIs installed to protect all branch circuits that supply 125-volt, single-phase, 15 and 20-ampere receptacle outlets installed in the dwelling unit bedrooms. This requirement became effective January 1, 2002.

In the 2002 edition, the update of section 210.12 on expanded AFCI protection to all bedroom outlets (lighting, receptacle, smoke alarm, etc.).

The 2005 NEC 210.12 expanded the AFCI requirement to provide for a technology upgrade. While previous generations of product detected parallel arcing, this new device ? a combination AFCI ? would also detect series arcing, and at lower current levels.

UL Standard
Product standards to cover AFCIs began to be developed in the mid 1990's. Underwriters Laboratories published UL 1699 - Standard for Safety for AFCIs - in 1996 to cover a wide variety of conditions to evaluate an AFCI. The standard includes requirements for the follow conditions:

? Humidity Conditioning
? Environmental Evaluation
? Unwanted Tripping
? Abnormal Operation
? Leakage Current
? Dielectric Voltage
? Operation Inhibition
? Voltage Surge
? Arc-Fault Detection
? Resistance to Environmental Noise

One of the most frequent questions about AFCIs is related to resistance to unwanted tripping.
There are four varieties of tests the UL standard specifies for unwanted tripping:
? Inrush Current: High current draw devices such as tungsten filament lamps and capacitor start motors.
? Normal Arcing : Brush motors, thermostatic contacts, wall switch and appliance plugs.
? Non-Sinusoidal Waveforms : Examples of devices creating these electrical waveforms include electronic lamp dimmers, computer switching-mode power supplies and fluorescent lamps.
? Cross Talk: This test measures trip avoidance for an AFCI when an arc is detected in an adjacent circuit. Only the circuit with the arc should cause the breaker to trip. Not another circuit.

Through the use of the National Electrical Code requirement and extensive UL testing, NEMA manufacturers AFCI products provide superior protection against arcing faults.

You can choose to believe this or not. Some choose not to that it is a big scam and a big moneymaker by the manufactureres. For some that's their identity such as they are a Ford person and think a Chevy is piece of junk and the other way around. It doesn't make sense but at least they stand for something.

 

[Strife]

My CH wholesaler tells me they have tbe new & improved models of CH & BR style AFCIs on hand. Complete with diagnostic indicating lights to tell you the type of fault. He is giving me a BR style to test in my house. I have high hopes.

By calling them "improved" they admit the previous ones were "not so good".
Meanwhile, for the last 5-6 years we spent billions and billions of dollars for something useless.
Now, that's a class action lawsuit I'll be cheering for.
And by that I mean free replacements and paid time to the EC to replace them.

 

[Gac66610]

Ya. Right!! Are you serious? What type of controlled test that would emulate and arc would you suggest that would be appropriate and safe? Or is this one of these "don't do this at home" experiments. I would put this right next to tripping a breaker using a light switch to short the circuit.

.......

i deleted only to save space, i understand that all this testing was done. dont get me wrong.
i have not changed the way (except for code changes) for 20+ years and now all of a sudden we need these AFCI's to better protect homes? i don't buy it
every house i have done is still standing, but how? ... i mean no AFCI to protect them


maybe i should just put a regular breaker on the tripping circuit and look, smell for smoke or burnt wires, has to be some if the AFCI tripped, right?

 

[templdl]

i deleted only to save space, i understand that all this testing was done. dont get me wrong.
i have not changed the way (except for code changes) for 20+ years and now all of a sudden we need these AFCI's to better protect homes? i don't buy it
every house i have done is still standing, but how? ... i mean no AFCI to protect them


maybe i should just put a regular breaker on the tripping circuit and look, smell for smoke or burnt wires, has to be some if the AFCI tripped, right?

I see your point and can't argue with it. But, our goal with every one of our installations is to have in installation that never fails. We install a load center with branch breakers sized to protect the wire that we installed and one has to wonder how many job are out there that none of the breakers in the panel have ever tripped. Does that mean that we can install fake breakers because they will never trip? Of course not. The AFCI has been developed to provide one more level of protection to prevent fires and save lives.
The AFCI is looking for something other than overloads and short circuits.
One of the other posters pointed out the fact that why is there new and improved AFCIs being introduced. That?s about like why is Intel coming out with a new processor, Apple coming out with a state of the art Ipad, the development of the smart phone. And not there are those who are criticizing the breaker manufactures for updating their product using new technology, research and development. Remember it is because of new technology that the original electronic trip units for breakers were peak sensing which resulted it troublesome nuisance trips. The advancements in solid-state technology allowed them to apply RMS sensing to their electronic trip units.

 

[Gac66610]

I see your point and can't argue with it. But, our goal with every one of our installations is to have in installation that never fails. We install a load center with branch breakers sized to protect the wire that we installed and one has to wonder how many job are out there that none of the breakers in the panel have ever tripped. Does that mean that we can install fake breakers because they will never trip? Of course not. The AFCI has been developed to provide one more level of protection to prevent fires and save lives.
The AFCI is looking for something other than overloads and short circuits.
One of the other posters pointed out the fact that why is there new and improved AFCIs being introduced. That?s about like why is Intel coming out with a new processor, Apple coming out with a state of the art Ipad, the development of the smart phone. And not there are those who are criticizing the breaker manufactures for updating their product using new technology, research and development. Remember it is because of new technology that the original electronic trip units for breakers were peak sensing which resulted it troublesome nuisance trips. The advancements in solid-state technology allowed them to apply RMS sensing to their electronic trip units.

I get your drift, its funny how i can buy a new computer. and next month its obsolete ... lol
kinda of funny how i berate them here in this thread but in another im fighting a GC to install them ...
i want nothing more than the safest house possible, if that means wading through AFCI's ... so be it
i believe i mentioned (in another thread) that when GFCI's first came out there were a lot more problems then, than now
maybe the AFCI's will make me a better wireman, as i am trying different materials to insure that its not my wiring, so can't be all bad :happyno:

lil story about me and AFCI ... was wiring up a fluorescent light in a closet with a door operated switch (long story short) power was on(oops, shh:dunce circuit was AFCI protected, i wired the light incorrectly touched the hot and neutral together, instead of a hole "arced" in the wires and flash blindness, it was a little tic of blue light and breaker tripped

 

[texie]

I see your point and can't argue with it. But, our goal with every one of our installations is to have in installation that never fails. We install a load center with branch breakers sized to protect the wire that we installed and one has to wonder how many job are out there that none of the breakers in the panel have ever tripped. Does that mean that we can install fake breakers because they will never trip? Of course not. The AFCI has been developed to provide one more level of protection to prevent fires and save lives.
The AFCI is looking for something other than overloads and short circuits.
One of the other posters pointed out the fact that why is there new and improved AFCIs being introduced. That?s about like why is Intel coming out with a new processor, Apple coming out with a state of the art Ipad, the development of the smart phone. And not there are those who are criticizing the breaker manufactures for updating their product using new technology, research and development. Remember it is because of new technology that the original electronic trip units for breakers were peak sensing which resulted it troublesome nuisance trips. The advancements in solid-state technology allowed them to apply RMS sensing to their electronic trip units.

I'm a big fan of the NEC, improvements in technology and code changes that do good. In the case of AFCI though, I think it was not ready for prime time to be included in the code and that things other than just safety, including dishonesty and greed, led to the premature inclusion into the code. Just my opinion....your mileage may vary.

 

[texie]

Great. The ground fault detection in the breaker worked. Did you ever test them to see if they tripped on any thing that invloved an arc?

Good point. What a scam. If it could be demonstrated that these things really work, I'd be glad to get on board with AFCI.

 

[cadpoint]

Great. The ground fault detection in the breaker worked. Did you ever test them to see if they tripped on any thing that invloved an arc?

Test an old 18V dewalt battery charger with the battery in and plug in and unplug it.

 

[jaylectricity]

I'm sure this has been said, but couldn't you just hold a single pole switch just at the brink of turning the light on or off to make the thing trip? Or if you took a switch that was already crackling and installed it on the circuit.

I don't really trust "AFCI testers" because they just do whatever it is that makes the breaker trip.

 

[templdl]

I'm sure this has been said, but couldn't you just hold a single pole switch just at the brink of turning the light on or off to make the thing trip? Or if you took a switch that was already crackling and installed it on the circuit.

I don't really trust "AFCI testers" because they just do whatever it is that makes the breaker trip.

Isn't that what they are supposed to do, emulate a condition to trip the AFCI? You question whether they realy do test be emulating and arcing fault and if so how do you base your premise?
Wouldn't you also expect that a GFCI testing device trip a GFCI buy simulating a GF with 5ma? Of course 5ma is a lot easier to understand than emulating an arc fault to test an AFCI. But that's what technology is. It is easier for some to deny that such technology exists because it is of such complexity, that such devices can not be tested by emulating an arcing fault by a novice in the field. Testing the thermal magnetic calibration of a simple TM breaker effectively in the field is not even possible.
It would be nice if the conclusions being made by many about the AFCIs not being effective and that it's a conspiracy by the electrical manufacturers who want to make money and a paying off UL would be verified by those before making such accusations. Otherwise it is just conjecture.

 

[ELA]

what does the test switch on a AFCI really do?

what does the test switch on a AFCI really do?

here is what one type does:

http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=111163&highlight=test+switch