Outdoor Kitchen Circuits, Sub-panel ?

[titan1021]

I'm bidding an outdoor kitchen that will be completely detached from the house. It will be covered by a roof, but otherwise open on all sides. I've done outdoor kitchens before but they have always been on the back of the house. This completely detached kitchen will require approx. (6) 120v circuits, it seems like this set-up would be treated like a detached garage or shed requiring a separate sub-panel and ground electrode since more than (1) 120v 20a circuit will be run to it. Anyone come across this before?

Thanks

 

[ActionDave]

I think you are right on track.

The Art. 100 definition of a structure pretty much includes everything; other than stuff that grows or set into place by a random act of God, that one would want to run power to.

 

[infinity]

I agree. Install a subpanel and pound in two grounds rods.

 

[Ponchik]

I agree. Install a subpanel and pound in two grounds rods.

But if it is being built and assuming the slab or foundation is new then can't the OP use the rebar & water pipe instead of the two ground rods?

 

[stickboy1375]

But if it is being built and assuming the slab or foundation is new then can't the OP use the rebar & water pipe instead of the two ground rods?

You could use a CEE, then you wouldn't need the ground rods... if the water pipe meets the criteria of 250.52 (A)(1) it needs to be part of the grounding electrode system regardless.

 

[jumper]

But if it is being built and assuming the slab or foundation is new then can't the OP use the rebar & water pipe instead of the two ground rods?

Foundation or footing- yes, slab-no.

250.52(A)(3) Concrete-Encased Electrode. An electrode encased
by at least 50 mm (2 in.) of concrete, located horizontally
near the bottom or vertically, and within that portion of a
concrete foundation or footing that is in direct contact with
the earth,

 

[stickboy1375]

Foundation or footing- yes, slab-no.

250.52(A)(3) Concrete-Encased Electrode. An electrode encased
by at least 50 mm (2 in.) of concrete, located horizontally
near the bottom or vertically, and within that portion of a
concrete foundation or footing that is in direct contact with
the earth,

I was trying to justify a slab myself, just wasn't sure if a slab met the definition of a foundation. Seems to me that it does?


Foundation: the lowest and supporting layer of a structure

 

[jumper]

I was trying to justify a slab myself, just wasn't sure if a slab met the definition of a foundation.

A lot of places say all slabs on grade for structures require a vapor barrier.

 

[stickboy1375]

A lot of places say all slabs on grade for structures require a vapor barrier.

well that certainly changes the equation then.

 

[hillbilly1]

Since it has a roof, it may have footers unless they bury the posts holding up the roof. If they have a fireplace or wood fired pizza oven, they will also have footers.

 

[titan1021]

The kitchen will sit on top of a large patio, the roof structure will be supported by four large columns. It will have a brick pizza oven and two barbeques, along with a dishwasher, disposal, and refrigerator.

 

[infinity]

Even if they put in footings for the columns they would need 20' or more of 1/2" or larger rebar to qualify as a CEE. IMO it's not very likely that these footings would contain that rebar so two rods might be all that's required.

 

[Ponchik]

The kitchen will sit on top of a large patio, the roof structure will be supported by four large columns. It will have a brick pizza oven and two barbeques, along with a dishwasher, disposal, and refrigerator.

are you sure this is a kitchen and not a restaurant. It must be a huge house.

 

[jumper]

are you sure this is a kitchen and not a restaurant. It must be a huge house.

I am trying to guess where.

Marin, Napa, or Sonoma are my first 3 guesses.

 

[Ponchik]

I am trying to guess where.

Marin, Napa, or Sonoma are my first 3 guesses.

Besides the above Palo alto, los altos hills, wood side, atherton have some huge homes. I don't do much work in these homes except troubleshooting and service work but every time i am in these homes, i get lost in the house.

 

[jumper]

Besides the above Palo alto, los altos hills, wood side, atherton have some huge homes. I don't do much work in these homes except troubleshooting and service work but every time i am in these homes, i get lost in the house.

Yeah, nice areas also. OP has his location as North CA, so I tend to think of I-80 and above. Just an old habit from way back.

 

[stickboy1375]

Even if they put in footings for the columns they would need 20' or more of 1/2" or larger rebar to qualify as a CEE. IMO it's not very likely that these footings would contain that rebar so two rods might be all that's required.

Or just install 20' of #4 bare copper.

 

[titan1021]

I am trying to guess where.

Marin, Napa, or Sonoma are my first 3 guesses.

Great guesses! Those are great places to work, people have money and aren't afraid to spend it on on their projects.
They usually want the latest and greatest installed.

So many times I see GC's or clients want to cut corners on electrical when doing a project, its a shame to see a nice project totally miss the boat on lighting design.

This project is in Vacaville. Their will also be recessed lights, ceiling fan, flat screen, ceiling mounted propane heaters, etc...

Must be nice!

 

[jumper]

This project is in Vacaville.

Ya gotta stop at the Nut Tree, it is a hoot. Been there many times.

 

[titan1021]

Ya gotta stop at the Nut Tree, it is a hoot. Been there many times.

I went there as a kid too, now I take my kids.