Two phase elevator motor on a three phase service

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conmgt

Senior Member
Location
2 Phase Philly
I need to wire a two phase elevator...yes, two phase four wires...to a three phase service. The motor is older than any of you and it's nameplate only states 44A,
240V, 2 Phase, 980RPM.
The service is going to be 3ph 280V.

My question is, am I correct to calculate that 44A, 240V, 2ph = 41A, 208V, 3ph? (44x240xsqrt2)/(208xsqrt3).
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
I do not believe you can run a true two phase motor from a three phase system.

I think you would need a motor generator converter.
 

conmgt

Senior Member
Location
2 Phase Philly
There's many two phase motors here in Philly and the elevator repair company uses static phase changers often. When I suggested a m-g they said why spend the money? I have 2ph to 3ph static changers on hand, any reason that they can't convert 3ph to 2 ph?
 

jim dungar

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Wisconsin
Occupation
PE (Retired) - Power Systems
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conmgt

Senior Member
Location
2 Phase Philly
Yep, there's a Scott T on the pole across the street with three in and five out.
My question, 44A = 41A?

Oh, the changers I have lying around are not Scott T. A and B pass through, C and D combine to make C on the three phase side.
 
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Phil Corso

Senior Member
3-Phase to 2-Phase power

3-Phase to 2-Phase power

iwire, I don't think the motor outdates me! So here is one of many solutions, if, the 3-phase source is 208Y/120V!

This can be done with two single-phase, two-winding transformers, called X and Y!
Their rating should be 25-kVA each!

X's primary, rated 120V, is connected to Phase A and the Neutral of the 208Y/120V source.
Y's primary, rated 208V, is connected to Phase B and C of the 208Y/120V!
X's an Y's secondary are rated 240V.

Then, X's secondary will provide Vxx' at, say angle 0, and Y's secondary will provide Vyy', displaced 90-degrees!

Regards, Phil Corso
 

Phil Corso

Senior Member
3-phase to 2-phase

3-phase to 2-phase

Two corrections to my 23-may-12 (7:32pm) post:

1) I should have addressed my reply to conmgt. Sorry iwire!

2) kVA should have been 12.5kVA (Still using a slide-rule)
 

conmgt

Senior Member
Location
2 Phase Philly
Two corrections to my 23-may-12 (7:32pm) post:

1) I should have addressed my reply to conmgt. Sorry iwire!

2) kVA should have been 12.5kVA (Still using a slide-rule)

Thanks Phil.
Is my amp calc right?

I noticed in Table 430.149 that a 2ph 4 wire 10hp motor will draw 24A at 230V and a
3ph 3 wire 10hp motor will draw 28A at 230V (Table 430.150).

This elevator motor has no hp rating just 44A 240V 980rpm 2 Phase on the name plate.
 

Phil Corso

Senior Member
3-Phase to 2-Phase Conversion for Elevator Motor

3-Phase to 2-Phase Conversion for Elevator Motor

Conmgt... No! Each phase is treated as single-phase. Then, per the cited nameplate values, each phase equals 44A x 240V = 10.56 kVA. Thus, my recommendation for the next largest single-phase transformer to convert the 3-phase supply to 2-phase to accommodate the elevator motor!

Another caveat: Selection for the primary connections, i.e., A-N (120V) for Aux-xfmr "X", and B-C (208) for Aux-xfmr "Y", presumes primary phase-sequence is A-B-C! That insures Y-xfmr output is in quadrature with X-xfmr output meaning Vyy' lags Vxx'!

If you need help with selection of the Aux transformers let me know.

An Aside: The 3ph-2ph conversion can also be done with a single-winding Auto-Xfmr, but the correct ratios would probably be difficult to obtain!

Regards, Phil Corso
 

Joethemechanic

Senior Member
Location
Hazleton Pa
Occupation
Electro-Mechanical Technician. Industrial machinery
If you have a 240/120 delta three phase service it's easy. If you have a 120/208 wye you will need Scott Connected transformers to shift the phase.
 

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Joethemechanic

Senior Member
Location
Hazleton Pa
Occupation
Electro-Mechanical Technician. Industrial machinery
Scott-T.jpg
 

Phil Corso

Senior Member
Joethemechanic? your delta-connected xfmr illustration appears to provide two voltages in quadrature, sort of a quasi-Tee, but it won?t solve conmgt?s problem. Following is an explanation, but bear with me? it?s like defining what a ratchet is without using your hands!
For discussion purposes say the motor?s X-winding is connected to the horizontal-winding of the delta- xfmr. Representing Vxx?, its magnitude is equal to the xfmr?s full phase-voltage, say E.
Then say the motor?s Y-winding is connected to the mid-phase, what many call the ?High-Leg? (also known as Red-Leg, Bitch-Leg, Stinger-Leg,? etc!) Representing Vyy?, its magnitude is 0.866 x E!
It is obvious that the voltages are not equal in magnitude! More importantly, the connection of the vertical source represents still another problem, that is, the real displacement is not 90! This results from the fact that the actual vector (or phasor) has as its real-part, 0.500 x E and as its quadrature-part, 0.866 x E, yielding as a vector E x (0.5 + j0.866) or 1.3749!
In closing, using a delta-connected source with access to a mid-phase does not solve conmgt?s problem because: a) the motor is 2-ph, 4-winding, not a 2-ph, 3-winding machine; b) the two voltages are not equal in magnitude; and c) the sources are not displaced by 90!
Conmgt? further to your multiplying-factor question. In any 2-ph, 3-wire circuit, the common (or neutral) conductor will carry the SQRT [phase X? plus phase Y?.]! Thus, if your machine were 2-ph, 3-wire, 240 V, 44 A, then the common wire will carry 62.2 A!

Regards, Phil
 

Joethemechanic

Senior Member
Location
Hazleton Pa
Occupation
Electro-Mechanical Technician. Industrial machinery
Joethemechanic? your delta-connected xfmr illustration appears to provide two voltages in quadrature, sort of a quasi-Tee, but it won?t solve conmgt?s problem. Following is an explanation, but bear with me? it?s like defining what a ratchet is without using your hands!
For discussion purposes say the motor?s X-winding is connected to the horizontal-winding of the delta- xfmr. Representing Vxx?, its magnitude is equal to the xfmr?s full phase-voltage, say E.
Then say the motor?s Y-winding is connected to the mid-phase, what many call the ?High-Leg? (also known as Red-Leg, Bitch-Leg, Stinger-Leg,? etc!) Representing Vyy?, its magnitude is 0.866 x E!
It is obvious that the voltages are not equal in magnitude! More importantly, the connection of the vertical source represents still another problem, that is, the real displacement is not 90! This results from the fact that the actual vector (or phasor) has as its real-part, 0.500 x E and as its quadrature-part, 0.866 x E, yielding as a vector E x (0.5 + j0.866) or 1.3749!
In closing, using a delta-connected source with access to a mid-phase does not solve conmgt?s problem because: a) the motor is 2-ph, 4-winding, not a 2-ph, 3-winding machine; b) the two voltages are not equal in magnitude; and c) the sources are not displaced by 90!
Conmgt? further to your multiplying-factor question. In any 2-ph, 3-wire circuit, the common (or neutral) conductor will carry the SQRT [phase X? plus phase Y?.]! Thus, if your machine were 2-ph, 3-wire, 240 V, 44 A, then the common wire will carry 62.2 A!

Regards, Phil



Phil,

When the 2 phase system was common here it was not 240 volt nominal. All the equipment was designed for 220 volt nominal. So 208 volt is not really as low for that equipment as you might think.

Here in Philly the high leg delta was popular just for the reason that it could be used to supply 2 phase loads. It was common years ago to find them connected to a delta secondary and running like that for years with no ill effects.

If the voltage being unbalanced really bothers you you can boost/buck up enough on one of the phases and get it really close.

His only alternative is to buy transformers for the Scott Connection and that is a very expensive proposition.

There are no static converters, built for 3 phase to 2 phase conversion. Motor generator sets would work but we are talking custom built, you are not going to find a 2 phase generator anywhere "off the shelf"

If you want the "text book answer" it is Scott Connection
 

conmgt

Senior Member
Location
2 Phase Philly
I looked at the elevator motor again and it's 220V as Joe said earlier.
I got a quote for a 25kVa Scott T...$3,000. Does anyone have a source for used transformers?
 

broadgage

Senior Member
Location
London, England
I looked at the elevator motor again and it's 220V as Joe said earlier.
I got a quote for a 25kVa Scott T...$3,000. Does anyone have a source for used transformers?

I know that this is not answering the question, but might a new motor be cheaper ?
Remembering that if transformers are used, the customer is paying forever for the losses in the transformers.

Also, if transformers are used, then the motor might die of old age, and would almost certainly be replaced with a standard 3 phase one, thereby wasting the money spent on the transformers.
 
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