Electrons - when they move from Atom to Atom - where do they end up?

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BJ Conner

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Lives of Electrons

Lives of Electrons

"In any event, the electrons don't actually seem to go anywhere, the different theories all come back to:
Receive energy (boosting the orbit?)
Connect to another electron (bump? resonate? arc?)
Deplete energy (reducing the orbit?) "


THE SEX LIFE OF AN ELECTRON (with unhappy ending)

One night when his charge was at full capacity, Micro Farad decided to
get a cute little coil to discharge him. He picked up Millie Amp and
took her for a ride on his megacycle. They rode across the wheat stone
bridge, around the sine wave, and into the magnetic field next to the
flowing current.

Micro Farad, attracted by Millie's characteristic curve, soon had her
field fully excited. He laid her on the ground potential, raised her
frequency, lowered her resistance, and pulled out his high voltage
probe. He inserted it in parallel and began to short circuit her shunt.
Fully excited, Millie cried out, "ohm, ohm, give me mho". With his tube
at maximum output and her coil vibrating from the current flow, her
shunt soon reached maximum heat. The excessive current had shorted her
shunt, and Micro's capacity was rapidly discharged, and every electron
was drained off. They fluxed all night, tried various connections and
hookings until his bar magnet had lost all of its strength, and he could
no longer generate enough voltage to sustain his collapsing field. With
his battery fully discharged, Micro was unable to excite his tickler, so
they ended up reversing polarity and blowing each other's fuses.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 

K8MHZ

Senior Member
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Michigan. It's a beautiful peninsula, I've looked
Occupation
Electrician
This is an oldie, but a goodie from Dave Berry:

Today's scientific question is: What in the world is electricity and where does it go after it leaves the toaster?

Here is a simple experiment that will teach you an important electrical lesson: On a cool dry day, scuff your feet along a carpet, then reach your hand into a friend's mouth and touch one of his dental fillings. Did you notice how your friend twitched violently and cried out in pain? This teaches one that electricity can be a very powerful force, but we must never use it to hurt others unless we need to learn an important lesson about electricity.

It also illustrates how an electrical circuit works. When you scuffed your feet, you picked up batches of "electrons", which are very small objects that carpet manufacturers weave into carpet so that they will attract dirt. The electrons travel through your bloodstream and collect in your finger, where they form a spark that leaps to your friend's filling, then travel down to his feet and back into the carpet, thus completing the circuit.

AMAZING ELECTRONIC FACT: If you scuffed your feet long enough without touching anything, you would build up so many electrons that your finger would explode! But this is nothing to worry about unless you have carpeting.

Although we modern persons tend to take our electric lights, radios, mixers, etc. for granted, hundreds of years ago people did not have any of these things, which is just as well because there was no place to plug them in. Then along came the first Electrical Pioneer, Benjamin Franklin, who flew a kite in a lightning storm and received a serious electrical shock. This proved that lightning was powered by the same force as carpets, but it also damaged Franklin's brain so severely that he started speaking only in incomprehensible maxims, such as, "A penny saved is a penny earned." Eventually he had to be given a job running the post office.

After Franklin came a herd of Electrical Pioneers whose names have become part of our electrical terminology: Myron Volt, Mary Louise Amp, James Watt, Bob Transformer, etc. These pioneers conducted many important electrical experiments. Among them, Galvani discovered (this is the truth) that when he attached two different kinds of metal to the leg of a frog, an electrical current developed and the frog's leg kicked, even though it was no longer attached to the frog, which was dead anyway. Galvani's discovery led to enormous advances in the field of amphibian medicine. Today, skilled veterinary surgeons can take a frog that has been seriously injured or killed, implant pieces of metal in its muscles, and watch it hop back into the pond -- almost.

But the greatest Electrical Pioneer of them all was Thomas Edison, who was a brilliant inventor despite the fact that he had little formal education and lived in New Jersey. Edison's first major invention in 1877 was the phonograph, which could soon be found in thousands of American homes, where it basically sat until 1923, when the record was invented. But Edison's greatest achievement came in 1879 when he invented the electric company. Edison's design was a brilliant adaptation of the simple electrical circuit: the electric company sends electricity through a wire to a customer, then immediately gets the electricity back through another wire, then (this is the brilliant part) sends it right back to the customer again.

This means that an electric company can sell a customer the same batch of electricity thousands of times a day and never get caught, since very few customers take the time to examine their electricity closely. In fact, the last year any new electricity was generated was 1937.

Today, thanks to men like Edison and Franklin, and frogs like Galvani's, we receive almost unlimited benefits from electricity. For example, in the past decade scientists have developed the laser, an electronic appliance so powerful that it can vaporize a bulldozer 2000 yards away, yet so precise that doctors can use it to perform delicate operations to the human eyeball, provided they remember to change the power setting from "Bulldozer" to "Eyeball."
 

Besoeker

Senior Member
Location
UK
Responding to johngary's original question, "What happens to...?

Depending on enegization duration, the electron will have moved some micro-inches to 10ths of inches!


Regards, Phil Corso
Or just wiggle back and forth a tiny bit if it is AC.
I did some rough calculations a while back for 10A in a 2.5mm^2 wire.
At 60Hz, the electrons would move about 0.001 inches one way in the first half cycle and back in the next.
 

mivey

Senior Member
Some of this has been answered by others so please forgive any repeating:

I had a recent question posed by a student - when the free electron on the outer valance of the copper atom is freed when power is generated by a generator

The electrons are already "free" in a sea of movable electric charges and the generator just gets them moving along. While the electrons are really moving all the time, current is a measure of net charge flow. It would probably be better for you to not think of electrons alone as the movable charges (even though it is true for metals) but rather just think of charge flow in general.

- what happens to it once the produce current is consumed - Or is it possible to deplete the electrons in the copper wire?

Current is not consumed as it is just a measure of charge flow. But the charges are not consumed either because charge is just flowing in a circle. The energy is what is consumed and it is not carried by the charges but travels in the surrounding electromagnetic field.

Separation of charges gives an electric field and the moving of charges gives a magnetic field and you need both fields to deliver electric energy for consumption.

When a free electron(1) knocks the valence electron(2) free from it's orbit (bump theory), the electron(1) transfers it's energy to the second electron(2). The first electron settles into orbit, making the second electron the free electron. Electrons are never depleted, they are replaced.

Think billiard balls for energy transfer.

The electrons do not carry the energy and pass it from one to the other. The energy is carried in the surrounding electromagnetic field. In a wire, the electrons don't settle into an orbit over one atom but float around in a sea of movable electrons.

Another question... where does the very first free electron come from when electricity is produced by a generator? If all the electrons in a dead wire are neutral, what is the very first thing that happens to make electricity? A free electron has to come from somewhere, where and how is it "stripped" from another copper atom to start the process of energy transfer?

The electron is already there. While not a perfect analogy, think of the circuit as a circular pipe full of water (electrons). The generator just acts like a charge pump that gets the charges have a net flow in a particular direction.
 

mivey

Senior Member
An electric field.

A contradiction to the bump theory is exhibited by a capacitor.
Not at all. A different thing is happening on the two opposing plates of a capacitor (i.e., different then what happens along a wire), but it does not contradict the description of what happens in the wire.

Well, kinda different but kinda the same and I agree it does not contradict what happens in the wire. When delivering energy we need both the electric field and the magnetic field since together they deliver the energy (as long as the fields are not parallel). The electric field is evidenced by the circuit voltage and the magnetic field is evidenced by the circuit current.

The charged capacitor demonstrates energy in an electric field and the charged inductor demonstrates energy in a magnetic field. The complete circuit with wire demonstrates both.
 

mivey

Senior Member
If anyone could actually have proven any of the foregoing theories then all those super-physicists of the past, like Einstein, would long ago have been out of work.

1> Electrons are particles. (Most common at this time)
so electrons carry the charge in the appropriate direction, bump into another electron and pass the charge.

2> Electrons are charges extended in space. (Einstein's favorite I believe)
so electrons rub elbows and transmit the charge like a bucket brigade.
Electrons are matter with a negative charge. They do not pass their charge to another electron. Electrons also demonstrate characteristics of waves.

3> Electrons are standing waves. (A new one)
As is all matter, since it is all really energy in some bound state (according to theory). Exactly how it is bound to make matter is not known but it is certainly interesting reading the theories.

so electrons get juiced up, couple resonantly with the next in line, and pass the energy.
Energy does not travel in the wire with the charges but travels outside the wire in the surrounding field. The electrons are not getting an "injection" of energy juice and then passing it to their neighbor.
 
T

T.M.Haja Sahib

Guest
Energy does not travel in the wire with the charges but travels outside the wire in the surrounding field.
In case of dc, electromagnetic energy travel wholly inside the conductor, whereas in case of ac, part of it parts with the conductor and travels through space to reach your TV set to enable you to enjoy your favorite program, for example.
 

Hv&Lv

Senior Member
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Engineer/Technician
Sure seems like a lot. I would expect something much, much smaller but I don't feel like calculating it.
That is about the thickness of hair,
I thought it would be in the attometer range...
 

Besoeker

Senior Member
Location
UK
Sure seems like a lot. I would expect something much, much smaller but I don't feel like calculating it.
You're right.
A typo. I missed a zero. I should have done this before:

electronspeed01.jpg
 

Besoeker

Senior Member
Location
UK
That is about the thickness of hair,
I thought it would be in the attometer range...
Yes. I dropped a bollock - see above post.
Apologies to all.
Just out of interest, I measured one of my hairs using a digital vernier gauge. Best I could tell, it was about 100 microns which, from a a quick trawl of the wibbly wobbly web, seems to be within the ranges given.
On that basis, its thickness is about 40 times the distance the electron moves.
 

ggunn

PE (Electrical), NABCEP certified
Location
Austin, TX, USA
Occupation
Electrical Engineer - Photovoltaic Systems
Yes. I dropped a bollock - see above post.
Apologies to all.
Just out of interest, I measured one of my hairs using a digital vernier gauge. Best I could tell, it was about 100 microns which, from a a quick trawl of the wibbly wobbly web, seems to be within the ranges given.
On that basis, its thickness is about 40 times the distance the electron moves.
What kind of hair? :roll:
 

Smart $

Esteemed Member
Location
Ohio
Well, kinda different but kinda the same and I agree it does not contradict what happens in the wire. ...
I didn't say it contradicts what happens in a wire... I said it contradicts "bump theory". I am of the belief that electrons do not bump into each other like billiards (unless they are part of a super-collider experiment). Having like charges, as they approach another, they repel each other.
 

Smart $

Esteemed Member
Location
Ohio
Or just wiggle back and forth a tiny bit if it is AC.
I did some rough calculations a while back for 10A in a 2.5mm^2 wire.
At 60Hz, the electrons would move about 0.001 inches one way in the first half cycle and back in the next.

Sure seems like a lot. I would expect something much, much smaller but I don't feel like calculating it.

You're right.
A typo. I missed a zero. I should have done this before:

electronspeed01.jpg
Still about 30% greater than what I once calculated >here<. But likely a result of different size wires.
 
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mivey

Senior Member
In case of dc, electromagnetic energy travel wholly inside the conductor
Energy travels in the surrounding field in DC also.

, whereas in case of ac, part of it parts with the conductor and travels through space to reach your TV set to enable you to enjoy your favorite program, for example.
What are you talking about? We are not discussing an antenna, although it has some related action. For example, you could consider the conductor wire pair to be acting like a waveguide. For the normal AC circuit and the energy traveling along the conductor, the energy travels in the surrounding field, not down inside the wire with the charges.
 

mivey

Senior Member
Having like charges, as they approach another, they repel each other.
It is the difference in charge along the wire that makes the difference. There may be a whole bunch of electrons up ahead but as long as there are fewer than what is behind, the electron moves forward. That is essentially what happens in a wire.

Completing the circuit with a voltage across it causes a dispersion of surface charges at near light speed that position themselves in a shell along the wire. This dispersion of charges in the surrounding shell causes net charge gradients along the wire that begin to make the inside charges move. There is some sloshing around as the charges settle down and the current tries to reach equilibrium. During electron flow, more surface electrons are at the outer portion wire bends and help the flowing electrons make the turn by pushing them away from the outer edge of the turn.

Simply put, DC circuits eventually settle down and we can get all of the inside mobile charges moving together. With AC, especially with large conductors and high frequency, the outer edge mobile charges are closer to the surface gradients and get up to speed faster than the center mobile charges and we reverse direction before the charges get a chance to flow together. Thus, the sluggish response at the center of the wire is exhibited as more resistance than the faster response at the outer edges of the wire (it is worse with higher frequency AC and larger diameter conductors). We note this as skin effect with AC signals.
 
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T

T.M.Haja Sahib

Guest
Energy travels in the surrounding field in DC also.
You mean magnetic energy (and no electric energy) ?
For the normal AC circuit and the energy traveling along the conductor, the energy travels in the surrounding field, not down inside the wire with the charges.
Don't you think kinetic energy associated with moving electrons as ''energy''?
 
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