120 or 240

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uwireme

Member
Location
Cottonwood, CA
I replaced a panel that only had street lights hooked up. The wiring to the lights are Black, Red and green and the red wire had white tape and hooked up to the neutral. Customer tells me the lights never worked correctly. Without getting a bucket truck and looking at the high pressure light that has a photo cell how can I tell whether its 120 or 240? I don?t want to hook up to 240 and blow them up.
 

ceb58

Senior Member
Location
Raeford, NC
I replaced a panel that only had street lights hooked up. The wiring to the lights are Black, Red and green and the red wire had white tape and hooked up to the neutral. Customer tells me the lights never worked correctly. Without getting a bucket truck and looking at the high pressure light that has a photo cell how can I tell whether its 120 or 240? I don?t want to hook up to 240 and blow them up.

Put it back like you found it. The only way to tell is open the light and see how the ballast is wired along with the photo cell.
 

hurk27

Senior Member
Did you take and photos of the panel before you took it apart?

One of the best things you can do anytime you are going to take something apart, one of the first things I do before I started keeping a camera on the truck, is to go through and tape 240 volt loads and MWBC's together to make sure they get landed back the same way, while you could assume that the lights might be 120 or 240 now there is no way to be sure unless you see how the ballast is tapped, its unfortunate but take it as a lesson learned, never use someone else's tape marking to assume that it was for a neutral, it might have been just to mark out a certain set of lights?

Why was the panel changed? was it because they were having problems with the lights? unless you have a way of finding out the resistance that fixture would be on one voltage verses another and how many lamps are on each circuit, it will be hard to tell because if the HID fixture has a cap it might also have a drain down resistor, and other components that could throw you off.
 

GUNNING

Senior Member
Use a meter.... correctly and know what you are doing.

Use a meter.... correctly and know what you are doing.

Step One :hire an electrician
Step Two: pay them to do it right.

Image is money. Lighting is to showcase what you are presenting. Property is a BIG asset to not showcase properly.
In my State you can't work on your own rental property without a contractors license (electrical for lighting).

A ballast kit costs about $150 each. How much is that electrician going to cost you vs parts blown apart?
If you are replacing the panel might as well replace the ballast, starter and bulb.

Starter?? What's that??? That's why you delegate.
 

uwireme

Member
Location
Cottonwood, CA
Step One :hire an electrician
Step Two: pay them to do it right.

Image is money. Lighting is to showcase what you are presenting. Property is a BIG asset to not showcase properly.
In my State you can't work on your own rental property without a contractors license (electrical for lighting).

A ballast kit costs about $150 each. How much is that electrician going to cost you vs parts blown apart?
If you are replacing the panel might as well replace the ballast, starter and bulb.

Starter?? What's that??? That's why you delegate.


I have been a electrician for over 32 years and work for myself by myself so maybe you should keep your comments to yourself unless you can help me use a meter to test a fixture without getting to the ballast.
 

hurk27

Senior Member
Step One :hire an electrician
Step Two: pay them to do it right.

Image is money. Lighting is to showcase what you are presenting. Property is a BIG asset to not showcase properly.
In my State you can't work on your own rental property without a contractors license (electrical for lighting).

A ballast kit costs about $150 each. How much is that electrician going to cost you vs parts blown apart?
If you are replacing the panel might as well replace the ballast, starter and bulb.

Starter?? What's that??? That's why you delegate.

Did you bother to look at the OP profile, he is the electrician not the customer? at least that is how I read the OP:?

Did you take and photos of the panel before you took it apart?

I always take photos before and after, love the camera phone. Told the customer what I found before changing the panel, and hooked it up the same way I found it. Panel was old and needed to be relocated

Well heres what I think, at one time these street lights were wired for 240 volts and for what ever reason someone rewired them for 120 volts, now it could have been because replaced a fixture or two with a 120 volt only fixture instead of getting the correct 240 volt or multi tap ballast (might have been just what they had on the truck?) but this may or may not have a play into the problem as it depends upon how long these runs are, if the runs are very long then you have a voltage drop problem that HID fixtures do not like, as the start up current can keep the lamp from igniting, If you are sure you have wired the circuits back to like they were I would be willing to bet that the problem was pre-existing and hes now trying to pass it onto you, I would offer to bring out a bucket truck but if you find that the problem is the above I would let him know he will be billed for it.

a few problems with voltage drop and HID lighting, while they might work right when they were brand new, after a few months they tend to not want to strike, and will cycle, depending upon how bad the VD is I have been called on lamps cycling in just a week of use, ballast will run hotter and fail more often even if they do light, there was a reason the original design called for 240 volts, and I'll bet you will find long runs?

The problem is most times we are doing a job like this we are not there at night so we have no idea if or what lights even worked when we started, but a little checking can find the trouble every time, not seeing it leave me only to speculate, but the fact that at one time these street lights were fed with 240 volts tells me something was changed, and finding why is the key to putting it back on him.

I have many times had this happen where an owner of a building thinks he can get a free repair by saying it used to work, but I flat out will tell them If I find the problem pre-existing and or something that could not have happened by me, my time will be charged, but if it was something I caused I will make the correct repairs as needed.

Also sometimes we have to educate these owners so they can understand, like if you find that these fixtures should not have been changed to 120 volt rated units explain that voltage drop will cause all sorts of problems with HID lights, if you have the photos and can print them out, it will also help show how it was wired and how it is wired now, I have a color laser printer so it cost very little for me to blow up a photo and print it.

Here is one such service panel change I did and have the photos, while a camera phone is ok, I like a much clearer photo to see detail so I have a 7meg pix Kodak digital that I keep in the truck, with a back up battery and extra SD cards, it also helps me keep a record of what I did if a question ever comes up, in these photo when I got home that night I found two errors I did, lucky it wasn't a damaging one but could have been if I didn't catch it and called the owner to shut off the two breakers both involved landing a 240 volt circuit on 120 volts, but looking at the before and after photos I saw it right away.
 

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uwireme

Member
Location
Cottonwood, CA
Did you bother to look at the OP profile, he is the electrician not the customer? at least that is how I read the OP:?

Well heres what I think, at one time these street lights were wired for 240 volts and for what ever reason someone rewired them for 120 volts, now it could have been because replaced a fixture or two with a 120 volt only fixture instead of getting the correct 240 volt or multi tap ballast (might have been just what they had on the truck?) but this may or may not have a play into the problem as it depends upon how long these runs are, if the runs are very long then you have a voltage drop problem that HID fixtures do not like, as the start up current can keep the lamp from igniting, If you are sure you have wired the circuits back to like they were I would be willing to bet that the problem was pre-existing and hes now trying to pass it onto you, I would offer to bring out a bucket truck but if you find that the problem is the above I would let him know he will be billed for it.

a few problems with voltage drop and HID lighting, while they might work right when they were brand new, after a few months they tend to not want to strike, and will cycle, depending upon how bad the VD is I have been called on lamps cycling in just a week of use, ballast will run hotter and fail more often even if they do light, there was a reason the original design called for 240 volts, and I'll bet you will find long runs?

The problem is most times we are doing a job like this we are not there at night so we have no idea if or what lights even worked when we started, but a little checking can find the trouble every time, not seeing it leave me only to speculate, but the fact that at one time these street lights were fed with 240 volts tells me something was changed, and finding why is the key to putting it back on him.

I have many times had this happen where an owner of a building thinks he can get a free repair by saying it used to work, but I flat out will tell them If I find the problem pre-existing and or something that could not have happened by me, my time will be charged, but if it was something I caused I will make the correct repairs as needed.

Also sometimes we have to educate these owners so they can understand, like if you find that these fixtures should not have been changed to 120 volt rated units explain that voltage drop will cause all sorts of problems with HID lights, if you have the photos and can print them out, it will also help show how it was wired and how it is wired now, I have a color laser printer so it cost very little for me to blow up a photo and print it.

Here is one such service panel change I did and have the photos, while a camera phone is ok, I like a much clearer photo to see detail so I have a 7meg pix Kodak digital that I keep in the truck, with a back up battery and extra SD cards, it also helps me keep a record of what I did if a question ever comes up, in these photo when I got home that night I found two errors I did, lucky it wasn't a damaging one but could have been if I didn't catch it and called the owner to shut off the two breakers both involved landing a 240 volt circuit on 120 volts, but looking at the before and after photos I saw it right away.


Thank you for your input...I think you may be correct about the voltage drop; the run is with #10s and about 500 feet. There is no issue that it is my fault about the lights. I just want to help my community park figure out what?s wrong. I was trying not to spend money to rent a lift due to the parks limited funds. I will check for voltage at the last fixture. What do you think would be a minimum voltage to fire the hid fixtures?
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
I replaced a panel that only had street lights hooked up. The wiring to the lights are Black, Red and green and the red wire had white tape and hooked up to the neutral. Customer tells me the lights never worked correctly. Without getting a bucket truck and looking at the high pressure light that has a photo cell how can I tell whether its 120 or 240? I don?t want to hook up to 240 and blow them up.

I hope if there was a question you actually measured voltages before disconnecting things and you did not just look at wire colors and assume.

If customer claims they never worked correctly did you ask what the problem was? My guess is if they are 240 volt and magnetic ballasts they would have had obvious problems from the beginning and not just questionable problems.
 
I hope if there was a question you actually measured voltages before disconnecting things and you did not just look at wire colors and assume.

If customer claims they never worked correctly did you ask what the problem was? My guess is if they are 240 volt and magnetic ballasts they would have had obvious problems from the beginning and not just questionable problems.


First thought to OP....please elaborate on "they never worked properly". This forum is a treasure chest full of information and experience. Chances are, if you elaborate, several members have experienced the exact troubleshoot previously and can simplify your job....just my 1 1/2 cents (sorry, couldn't even come up with .02 today!!)
 

growler

Senior Member
Location
Atlanta,GA
I just want to help my community park figure out what?s wrong. I was trying not to spend money to rent a lift due to the parks limited funds. I will check for voltage at the last fixture. What do you think would be a minimum voltage to fire the hid fixtures?


It won't do any good to measure the voltage at the last fixture. To get the correct voltage reading reading to include voltage drop all the lights would have to be on and working ( full load).

If you know the wattage of the lamps and the distance it would be better to calculate the voltage drop.

If they did switch from 240 to 120V it is highly possible that each circuit is over loaded.


There really is no short cut, you will need a lift or bucket truck. If you can reach them from a lift that is much cheaper.

Calculate the voltage drop to see if they would work if wired correctly at 120. You may have to re-tap all the fixtures just to get things to where they would work.
 
I know you all hate home depot, but, when I needed a tow behind lift to do some lighting installations/repairs FOR the little village that I live in, the local home depot donated the lift for the day at no charge to me or the village.

To the OP, maybe since it is a community park, you might find a rental company (or big box store) willing to help out. (maybe even a tree company from your community) a few phone calls never hurts (too badly).
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
I know you all hate home depot, but, when I needed a tow behind lift to do some lighting installations/repairs FOR the little village that I live in, the local home depot donated the lift for the day at no charge to me or the village.

To the OP, maybe since it is a community park, you might find a rental company (or big box store) willing to help out. (maybe even a tree company from your community) a few phone calls never hurts (too badly).

Some POCO will help out with bucket trucks also, little or no charge. At very least they want the end user to be a customer of their system.
 

GUNNING

Senior Member
I apologize

I apologize

I did not realize you had the experience set and background to tackle this project. I have been inundated with weird requests for the last few weeks and did not think to explore further. It was my short sightedness and I apologize for offending you. I have a steadfast rule when dealing with customers. I say "whatever you need to have done I can do." This includes sweeping up and washing there truck if requested.

I would look at this problem as a do over. Get the lift and explore. If the owner wants the lights working right, the only way is to look. Might try Binoculars and try to get a clue from some of the fixtures. Wattage, model, might have a visible boiler plate. Try a tree service and see if they would rent you a lift truck one night. They don't work at night. Look at the panel real hard and look for lengths of wire and where they went in the panel. Might be a clue there.

Remember that you are in business to make money. Get a proposal together with "I can fix this for $$$" and warranty it for a 2 year period prorated... That way you get invited back first.

Again, I apologize. :slaphead:
 

Fulthrotl

~Autocorrect is My Worst Enema.~
Well heres what I think, at one time these street lights were wired for 240 volts and for what ever reason someone rewired them for 120 volts, now it could have been because replaced a fixture or two with a 120 volt only fixture instead of getting the correct 240 volt or multi tap ballast (might have been just what they had on the truck?) but this may or may not have a play into the problem as it depends upon how long these runs are, if the runs are very long then you have a voltage drop problem that HID fixtures do not like, as the start up current can keep the lamp from igniting, If you are sure you have wired the circuits back to like they were I would be willing to bet that the problem was pre-existing and hes now trying to pass it onto you, I would offer to bring out a bucket truck but if you find that the problem is the above I would let him know he will be billed for it.

a few problems with voltage drop and HID lighting, while they might work right when they were brand new, after a few months they tend to not want to strike, and will cycle, depending upon how bad the VD is I have been called on lamps cycling in just a week of use, ballast will run hotter and fail more often even if they do light, there was a reason the original design called for 240 volts, and I'll bet you will find long runs?

sounds like a bullseye to me. bet ya find out that you have some
120 and 240 volt configured ballasts on the same circuit.

i've seen guys take a 120 volt ballast and slam it to ground on half
of a 240 volt circuit, to get the job done with what was at hand and
available.

and whoever pulled the circuit originally could have taped a color
white and used it for a neutral, not to code on #10, but there you are.

before you end up owning the mess i'd get a lift and see whats up
in the fixture and see how it's wired. there could have been almost
anything done.

and i'm willing to bet a cheeseburger that the lights were changed
from 240 to 120 volts, one leg became the neutral, and you have
25% voltage drop with all of them trying to light at once... then they
start cycling randomly, and one by one they light up, until the last
couple don't have enough beans to fire, or when they do, they take
out another light, and so forth.

you mentioned 500' as a distance on these.... i just pulled three
500' runs for a seven amp loads, and the wire size was #6.
120 volts is a killer. you are working with percentages of voltage
drop, so doubling the voltage doubles the amount of volts able
to be dropped with the same percentage, but the wire resistance
remains the same.
 
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