Part II - Michaels PVC supporting Pool JB

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Dennis Alwon

Dennis Alwon

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Let's take this discussion a step further. I have seen many pool iight JB's that were supported with pvc. Art. 680.23(B)(2) clearly allows pvc to the jb however it does not talk about support. I do not see how you can support a pool box without rmc so-- is this install compliant? Often there may be 3 PVC conduits in the JB but sometimes just 2.
 
Interesting question.
A majority of the pool JBs I see are in a protected location so support isn't a major concern, but it would seem that, to be compliant, the box would need to comply with 314.23(E) and have at least two conduits threaded wrench tight.
 
I can't see where 680 directly addresses the support issue and would think one would have to go back to 314.
 
augie47 said:
I can't see where 680 directly addresses the support issue and would think one would have to go back to 314.
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It doesn't except that it states pvc is allowed to the jb and the jb is not really supportable. I am with you that the JB is generally not in an area where it is subject to damage but the NEC doesn't address it.

Looks like a lot of installs are not compliant if that is not the intent.
 
Dennis Alwon said:
It doesn't except that it states pvc is allowed to the jb and the jb is not really supportable. I am with you that the JB is generally not in an area where it is subject to damage but the NEC doesn't address it.

Looks like a lot of installs are not compliant if that is not the intent.
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Can a claim be made that the JB is supported by other means?
 
Dennis Alwon said:
Let's take this discussion a step further. I have seen many pool iight JB's that were supported with pvc. Art. 680.23(B)(2) clearly allows pvc to the jb however it does not talk about support. I do not see how you can support a pool box without rmc so-- is this install compliant? Often there may be 3 PVC conduits in the JB but sometimes just 2.
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Not familiar with pool lighting - can you provide a picture of what you are talking about and a typical install? Is this box supported by earth or concrete or suspended in free air and only supported by entering raceways?
 
kwired said:
Not familiar with pool lighting - can you provide a picture of what you are talking about and a typical install? Is this box supported by earth or concrete or suspended in free air and only supported by entering raceways?
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poolbox.jpg
 
To add to Mikes pic- here is one that looks like there is wood on the back side- Never seen it that way but the box has no means of supporting it.

joenj-LightJunctionBox.jpg


Here is the bottom side of the box.

pentair-junction-box.jpg
 
Not having done a lot of pools and having never used a box like that why would you assume it could be supported by PVC?:huh:
 
Having lived in an area with many, many pools at one time (been 10 years though), it was always accepted practice in every juristiction that I knew to use the PVC for support of a pool light jbox.. As others noted, there is no practical way to support by other means. In the early days of these, the conduit from the pool light was brass and the conduit from the panel was RMC, so it was supported. Of course, as time went on all conduits became PVC and the practice continued.
 
In the pic I show and the graphic Mike shows I don't know how the box is supported as there are no provisions to support the box that way. I guess you can support the pipes which in turn supports the box but I have never seen that done.

Maybe Chris K can help us on how it is done in his area of Fla.
 
iwire said:
Not having done a lot of pools and having never used a box like that why would you assume it could be supported by PVC?:huh:
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I'm in same boat and feel same way.

Dennis Alwon said:
In the pic I show and the graphic Mike shows I don't know how the box is supported as there are no provisions to support the box that way. I guess you can support the pipes which in turn supports the box but I have never seen that done.

Maybe Chris K can help us on how it is done in his area of Fla.
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Again I have basically no experience with pools, the pic you showed had three hubs. Wouldn't it be real easy to support it with your brass raceway and another RMC/IMC even if it is just there for support and then the third hub has the PVC run to the supply will no longer be considered a support for the box?
 
kwired said:
Again I have basically no experience with pools, the pic you showed had three hubs. Wouldn't it be real easy to support it with your brass raceway and another RMC/IMC even if it is just there for support and then the third hub has the PVC run to the supply will no longer be considered a support for the box?
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If you have 2 pool lights you go in and out-- also the pool guys almost always run pvc from the pool light.
 
Here are the install instructions for a non-metalic deck box. Note under 'General Information' on page 1 the support bracket is called 'optional'. Note on page 2 #4 says box must be rigidly supported. That said 314.23(E) says;

(E) Raceway Supported Enclosure, Without Devices, Luminaires, or Lampholders.

An enclosure that does not contain a device(s) other than splicing devices or support a luminaire(s), lampholder, or other equipment and is supported by entering raceways shall not exceed 1650 cm3 (100 in.3) in size. It shall have threaded entries or have hubs identified for the purpose. It shall be supported by two or more conduits threaded wrenchtight into the enclosure or hubs. Each conduit shall be secured within 900 mm (3 ft) of the enclosure, or within 450 mm (18 in.) of the enclosure if all conduit entries are on the same side.
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PVC was called RNC in the 05. Rigid non-metallic CONDUIT.



So IMO, I don't have a clue, AHJ call?
 
I have seen it done many times with PVC and even sec.80 offers no help since the male adapters are still the weak point and I have had to repair box's where the threads broke off in the box because someone stepped on it or hit it with a lawn mower, I have for a while avoided any box mounted to wood since I have started using Arlington Garden Post and they eliminate this problem and even have a hub that comes with it to install a light in the top, and two places to install devices if so needed, but back to Dennis's question, it seems it should be a code violation that my not be understood since PVC is called ridged and with the male adapters can be threaded into the require "threaded entries" which is all the code says? (314.23(E)

I think it is a tough call for AHJ's with that kind of wording. wonder if UL offers any ideas?
 
Well that brings us back to the controversy in the other thread - is the terminal adapter part of the 'conduit' or is it a separate fitting and not allowed to support this enclosure. Sorry to reopen that but that kind of is where it stands as to whether or not this can be supported by PVC.
 
kwired said:
Well that brings us back to the controversy in the other thread - is the terminal adapter part of the 'conduit' or is it a separate fitting and not allowed to support this enclosure. Sorry to reopen that but that kind of is where it stands as to whether or not this can be supported by PVC.
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Hence the title of the thread but I really don't think that is the issue. IMO, support is required but for some reason perhaps aesthetics, it is not enforced in many areas.
 
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