Is EMT a conduit?

[220/221]

Since the NEC doesn't define conduit, we must rely on another resource like a dictionary or, common sense.


EMT is conduit. It's not a slang term. You install conduit and pull wires in it. Pretty simple. This is like arguing what the definition of is is.

99% of the commercial metallic raceways installed here are EMT and have been since I've been around the trade in the early 70's. You send the apprentice to bring some conduit, not tubing :roll:
Of course, even though you have been running hundreds of feet of EMT all day, he might bring you a bundle of PVC.

 

[Strathead]

I hear ya.

And if anyone cares, notice I never went into if the specs were poor or not to me that was not what the OP asked.

He asked "Is EMT conduit" and my answer remains, and in my opinion is indisputable that to the NEC EMT is tubing not conduit.

And if anyone cares, my answer remains and in my opinion is indisputable, that the NEC doesn't define the term conduit, so it doesn't have any legal or code bearing. On top of that, I will continue to send my guys out to install conduit next week, and if they run rigid where EMT is supposed to be, I will likely let them go.

Back to the OP again. I will continue to assume that there are other indications between plans, specs and existing conditions that more clearly identify what was required than the info we currently have.

 

[Strathead]

I am not sure your argument can sell.

The NEC has everything to do with it. In it there are several different installation material identified as 'conduit'. Based on the engineers documents it would have been acceptable to install ANY of those and nor argument can be raised, however using something that is identified as 'tubing' certainly opens up this question.

However, the installer 'submitted' that he will be using EMT in some places as 'conduit' and the engineer's opposition to it shouold be raised THEN.

So it appers that the installer is correct, but not for the argument you present.

Again and again, the NEC does not define "Conduit" If you can find ANY other plan from the EE where he stated all wiring shall be in conduit and then specified EMT for the interior of the building, then you can show that he uses the terms interchangeably. Just like the industry does.


Do you state that you have never referred to EMT installations as Conduit installations? Same question for the other naysayers here? If you have, used the term this way, or for that matter, accepted the use in this way from engineers or specifiers, then joint the ranks of the rest of us. That said, if the NEC felt there was a disticntion, they would have been moved to clarify it LONG before this since somewhere between 99% and 100% of the industry has referred to it as conduit at some point.

THE NEC DOES NOT DEFINE CONDUIT.

 

[kwired]

Again and again, the NEC does not define "Conduit" If you can find ANY other plan from the EE where he stated all wiring shall be in conduit and then specified EMT for the interior of the building, then you can show that he uses the terms interchangeably. Just like the industry does.


Do you state that you have never referred to EMT installations as Conduit installations? Same question for the other naysayers here? If you have, used the term this way, or for that matter, accepted the use in this way from engineers or specifiers, then joint the ranks of the rest of us. That said, if the NEC felt there was a disticntion, they would have been moved to clarify it LONG before this since somewhere between 99% and 100% of the industry has referred to it as conduit at some point.

THE NEC DOES NOT DEFINE CONDUIT.

good post:thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

[weressl]

Again and again, the NEC does not define "Conduit" If you can find ANY other plan from the EE where he stated all wiring shall be in conduit and then specified EMT for the interior of the building, then you can show that he uses the terms interchangeably. Just like the industry does.


Do you state that you have never referred to EMT installations as Conduit installations? Same question for the other naysayers here? If you have, used the term this way, or for that matter, accepted the use in this way from engineers or specifiers, then joint the ranks of the rest of us. That said, if the NEC felt there was a disticntion, they would have been moved to clarify it LONG before this since somewhere between 99% and 100% of the industry has referred to it as conduit at some point.

THE NEC DOES NOT DEFINE CONDUIT.

Again and again, the NEC identifies SEVERAL installation materials by utilizing the word 'conduit' in their names in Chapter 3 Wiring Methods and Materials.

344 Rigid Metal Conduit: Type RMC

348 Flexible Metal Conduit: Type FMC

350 Liquidtight Flexible Metal Conduit: Type LFMC

....etc

So the installer could have used any of those methods in places where the drawings or specifications called for conduit and where the specific conduit is suitable for THAT installation as per the specific NEC Article Installation provisions. He could NOT have substituted any tubing or other raceways for the conduit WITHOUT notifying the Owner, which he did. He submitted that he will be using RMC where it is specifically called for and EMT at other(?) places.

​

 

[kwired]

Again and again, the NEC identifies SEVERAL installation materials by utilizing the word 'conduit' in their names in Chapter 3 Wiring Methods and Materials.

344 Rigid Metal Conduit: Type RMC

348 Flexible Metal Conduit: Type FMC

350 Liquidtight Flexible Metal Conduit: Type LFMC

....etc

So the installer could have used any of those methods in places where the drawings or specifications called for conduit and where the specific conduit is suitable for THAT installation as per the specific NEC Article Installation provisions. He could NOT have substituted any tubing or other raceways for the conduit WITHOUT notifying the Owner, which he did. He submitted that he will be using RMC where it is specifically called for and EMT at other(?) places.

​

Does the NEC ever use the word "conduit" as just a general term when not specifically referring to a specific type of "conduit"? No. Whenever that situation would be possible the NEC uses the word "raceway", which the NEC does have a defintion for.

 

[weressl]

Does the NEC ever use the word "conduit" as just a general term when not specifically referring to a specific type of "conduit"? No. Whenever that situation would be possible the NEC uses the word "raceway", which the NEC does have a defintion for.

The Engineer - bless his heart - used the term 'conduit' not the NEC, so it could refer to any of the 'conduits' that the NEC identifies as such.

 

[Knightryder12]

Definition of conduit

Definition of conduit

If you go and look at the definition of conduit in the merriam-webster dictionary you find this:

Definition of CONDUIT

1: a natural or artificial channel through which something (as a fluid) is conveyed
2archaic : fountain
3: a pipe, tube, or tile for protecting electric wires or cables

So in my opinion, a tube (or EMT) in this case is considered a conduit. I have been in the industry for a long time (over 25 years) and have never heard that EMT is not a listed conduit. I have also been in the electrical design industry for the last 12 years and as a designer, unless my client strictly wanted RMC or IMC I would approve the use of EMT as a conduit.

 

[renosteinke]

I remember one labor contract negotiation, where the company was adamant that a holiday be given up.

The union first got the company to agree that all management would be at work on the deleted holiday ... then offered to give back Christmas. Management dropped the request for the concession.

I see the same possibility here - and thank you to all those who have pointed it out. Forget PVC pipe .... if the engineer wants 'conduit,' I can think of no better choice than 'plastic flex.' LFNMC. Unless. of course, "Smurf tube" qualifies. I'll bet th engineer suddenlt decides that EMT isn't so bad, after all.

 

[kwired]

The Engineer - bless his heart - used the term 'conduit' not the NEC, so it could refer to any of the 'conduits' that the NEC identifies as such.

NEC does not define 'conduit' and does not identify anything as conduit. Where the word conduit appears is part of a name of a product. When NEC addresses this kind of thing as a general term it uses the word "raceway" and does have a definition for that word. The engineer needs to learn to either do the same or define what he is referring to somewhere in his documentation.

I remember one labor contract negotiation, where the company was adamant that a holiday be given up.

The union first got the company to agree that all management would be at work on the deleted holiday ... then offered to give back Christmas. Management dropped the request for the concession.

I see the same possibility here - and thank you to all those who have pointed it out. Forget PVC pipe .... if the engineer wants 'conduit,' I can think of no better choice than 'plastic flex.' LFNMC. Unless. of course, "Smurf tube" qualifies. I'll bet th engineer suddenlt decides that EMT isn't so bad, after all.

ENT has the same dilemma - its name implies that it is a tubing.

 

[cdslotz]

Back to the OP again. I will continue to assume that there are other indications between plans, specs and existing conditions that more clearly identify what was required than the info we currently have.

I would go farther than assume.
We now know why the OP was low bidder

 

[kwired]

I would go farther than assume.
We now know why the OP was low bidder

That means engineers are not human and do not make mistakes. They can break down though or if input wrong information then output will be wrong also:happyyes:

 

[roger]

Ok, everybody keeps bring up that there are no definitions of conduit and tubing in the NEC although the individual articles use the terms for specific items. See all the 3XX.6 sections and then go to the UL Whitebook.

Conduit and Fittings (DWFV) ............................................................................................. 111Conduit and Cable Hardware (DWMU) ........................................................................ 111Conduit Fittings (DWTT) .................................................................................................. 111

Retrofit Fitting Kits Classified for Use with Extruded Rigid PVC Conduit(DWUC) ............................................................................................................................ 112

Flexible Conduit, Liquid-tight (DWWY) ........................................................................ 112
Flexible Metal Conduit Assemblies, Liquid-tight (DXAS) ...................................... 112
Flexible Metal Conduit, Liquid-tight (DXHR) .......................................................... 113
Flexible Nonmetallic Conduit, Liquid-tight (DXOQ) .............................................. 113
Flexible Metal Conduit (DXUZ) ....................................................................................... 113
Intermediate Ferrous Metal Conduit (DYBY) ................................................................ 114
Rigid Ferrous Metal Conduit (DYIX) .............................................................................. 114
Rigid Ferrous Metal Conduit with Polyvinyl Chloride Coating Verified for PVCAdhesion Performance (DYJC) ......................................................................................... 115
Rigid Nonferrous Metallic Conduit (DYWV) ................................................................ 115
Reinforced Thermosetting Resin Conduit (DZKT) ....................................................... 115
Rigid Nonmetallic Cellular Core Schedule 40 PVC Conduit (DZLR) ...................... 115
Rigid Nonmetallic Schedule 40 and Schedule 80 PVC Conduit (DZYR) ................. 116

Rigid Nonmetallic Underground Conduit, Plastic (EAZX) ........................................ 116

Does anybody see EMT in that list?

Now,

Electrical Metallic Tubing (FJMX)..................................................................................... 139Electrical Metallic Tubing Fittings (FKAV) .................................................................... 139
Electrical Nonmetallic Tubing (FKHU) ............................................................................ 140​

Electrical Nonmetallic Tubing Fittings (FKKY) ............................................................. 140

As stated early in the thead, UL does not see Conduit and Tubing as the same thing as proved by the different listing categories.

Everyone can go with their feelings and what they have always considered EMT to be but, the fact is, per the listings (yes they are NEC requirements) EMT is not in the same category as a long list of "Conduit Types"


I hope the OP wins in his argument but, using the argument EMT is conduit is a weak argument and IMO not winable unless the specs leave a big enough void or as Lazslo mentioned, the Engineer knew of this discrepancy early on and did not red flag it to the EC.

Roger

 

[Strathead]

Does the NEC ever use the word "conduit" as just a general term when not specifically referring to a specific type of "conduit"? No. Whenever that situation would be possible the NEC uses the word "raceway", which the NEC does have a defintion for.

Which whether intentionally or unintentionally enforces my point. The NEC doesn't define conduit.

 

[mivey]

Roger,

I get what you are saying but why shouldn't the OP get extra money for installing a metallic raceway instead of PVC conduit? I know why, but the point is that it does seem like the requirements were not crystal clear.

 

[Strathead]

Again and again, the NEC identifies SEVERAL installation materials by utilizing the word 'conduit' in their names in Chapter 3 Wiring Methods and Materials.

344 Rigid Metal Conduit: Type RMC

348 Flexible Metal Conduit: Type FMC

350 Liquidtight Flexible Metal Conduit: Type LFMC

....etc

So the installer could have used any of those methods in places where the drawings or specifications called for conduit and where the specific conduit is suitable for THAT installation as per the specific NEC Article Installation provisions. He could NOT have substituted any tubing or other raceways for the conduit WITHOUT notifying the Owner, which he did. He submitted that he will be using RMC where it is specifically called for and EMT at other(?) places.

​

I encourage every one of my competition to bid all jobs that state "All wiring shall be in conduit" with no EMT PLEASE! In my area, I should be able to get all the work I want for a good rate too! I have never seen a set of plans or specs that is so vague that I would have to depend on what the EE meant by the term conduit. I am still going to send my guys out to install some EMT conduit tommorrow though. If any of them tell me they can't because EMT is not conduit, I think I will punch them.

 

[cdslotz]

I hope the OP wins in his argument but, using the argument EMT is conduit is a weak argument and IMO not winable unless the specs leave a big enough void or as Lazslo mentioned, the Engineer new of this discrepancy early on and did not red flag it to the EC.

FWIW, I have always considered EMT a conduit and would argue tooth and nail with an engineer who stated the job shall be in conduit and he approved my EMT submittal.

 

[roger]

Roger,

I get what you are saying but why shouldn't the OP get extra money for installing a metallic raceway instead of PVC conduit? I know why, but the point is that it does seem like the requirements were not crystal clear.

Mivey, installing a metallic raceway verses a PVC raceway is not the issue, (at least I don't think it is) it is EMT verses Metallic Conduit.

Unless we could see the entire specifications I don't think we can tell how clear things were spelled out as to where EMT can be used and where metallic conduit was to be used.


Roger

 

[renosteinke]

I'd be wary of using a UL directory as a guide to the proper use of the language .... UL is notorious for having indecipherable directories and classifications.

It's almost like arguing that there are no such things as 'zippers,' because the GSA listing has them as "Slide fastener, interlocking". Say what you will, but I've never had anyone see the film "There's Something About Mary" and tell me about the "slide fastener / frank & beans" scene!

Let's carry things to their logical extreme .... let's say this dispute makes it to trial, where the issue will be decided by a dozen welfare queens bussed away from daytime TV. Do you really think they're going to split hairs over whether a 'tube' is a 'conduit?'

More likely, they're going to get mad at the fool that wasted their time, then ax da judge iffn it's OK to slap you upside yo head!

Sometimes we need to stop sniffing the blueprint fumes and get a whiff of reality.

 

[mivey]

Mivey, installing a metallic raceway verses a PVC raceway is not the issue, (at least I don't think it is) it is EMT verses Metallic Conduit.

Unless we could see the entire specifications I don't think we can tell how clear things were spelled out as to where EMT can be used and where metallic conduit was to be used.


Roger

No doubt the specs would clarify things. But if he just stated "conduit", I'm supposing sch 40 & 80 are fair game.