anyone have experience with phase converters?

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jiggawatt79

Member
Location
New Mexico
Here is the situation. I was asked to bid a project for a non-profit organization that feeds the homeless. Somebody donated a walk in cooler and walk in freezer. They are 3 phase compressors. One takes a 30 amp circuit and one takes a 20 amp circuit. The service coming in is single phase 240 V. 3 phase power would be extremely expensive to bring in. I am thinking of 2 options here

1. install phase converters
2. have them swap out the compressors with single phase compressors

I only remember dealing with phase converters on one other project. I want to make sure that what I install is correct and doesn't cause problems down the line. Please weigh in here...
 

beanland

Senior Member
Location
Vancouver, WA
Rotary vs VFD

Rotary vs VFD

A rotary phase converter will be expensive to be large enough to handle the starting of the compressors. A VFD has the same issues and requires the right kind of motor. IMHO, you will be better off replacing the compressors. One warning, a single-phase compressor will require a huge feeder and have huge inrush. Is the electric service up to the added load?
 
I've put in several. They usually are sized by horsepower, and handle startup fine. A 5hp converter will run you $450 or so. Find out what the actually running amps of the compressors are and use that for sizing. A quick search on ebay for "rotary phase converter" will give you an idea about the price. Elimia sells direct there. I put an Elimia unit on a 10 ton AC unit. Works fine. The only thing to be cautious of is that the output is a delta 3 phase with the generated phase being the high leg. Usually that is not a problem for most equipment as long as it is rated 240v/3p. I would check with the manufacturer is it's rated 208v/3p (wye).

And yes, they will most likely be quite a bit cheaper than a VFD.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
A rotary phase converter will be expensive to be large enough to handle the starting of the compressors. A VFD has the same issues and requires the right kind of motor. IMHO, you will be better off replacing the compressors. One warning, a single-phase compressor will require a huge feeder and have huge inrush. Is the electric service up to the added load?

Not knowing details his 30 amp 3 phase circuit may end up needing roughly 50 amp single phase circuit and the 20 amp probably increases to around 35 amps single phase.

If three phase is derived from a VFD inrush is not a problem as they will "soft start'. Total VA really needs to be known and not the setting of the circuit breakers as they are probably already at least twice rated current to allow for starting.


If they are older less efficient compressors look harder into replacing with newer single phase compressors. There has been a lot of changes in last 20 years in refrigeration efficiency.
 

Jraef

Moderator, OTD
Staff member
Location
San Francisco Bay Area, CA, USA
Occupation
Electrical Engineer
Just a word of caution on the use of VFDs on something like a walk-in cooler / freezer. Often they have single phase loads such as lighting that is tapped off of the 3 phase power, maybe also to a transformer. To use a VFD, you would have to get into the internal wiring and separate the circuits. The VFD power can only feed the motor and you would need a separate VFD for each motor (unless you want to make sure the control system ALWAYS starts both compressors together). That makes it sometimes more advantageous to use a phase-adder system, because then you just make sure the power for the single phase loads is connected to the two "real" phases.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Just a word of caution on the use of VFDs on something like a walk-in cooler / freezer. Often they have single phase loads such as lighting that is tapped off of the 3 phase power, maybe also to a transformer. To use a VFD, you would have to get into the internal wiring and separate the circuits. The VFD power can only feed the motor and you would need a separate VFD for each motor (unless you want to make sure the control system ALWAYS starts both compressors together). That makes it sometimes more advantageous to use a phase-adder system, because then you just make sure the power for the single phase loads is connected to the two "real" phases.

Not very often is a condenser or evaporator fan 3 phase. I was assuming one would connect the VFD directly to the compressor and drive no other accessories from it.

You could run into defrost heaters or door frame heaters that were connected to three phase but usually could be configured to connect to single phase. It has been more common for me anyway to see 240 volt heaters that are single phase but a three phase circuit was run and several heaters were connected to it.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Thanks.
That's surprising to me. A rotary unit has a fair amount of copper and manufacturing labor; a VFD far less of both. But a VFD would likely need a load reactor, which is again copper and xfmr steel..

That is what my line of thinking was. You can get small VFD pretty cheap anymore. Load reactor is not necessarily needed but is recommended. Load reactor is not nearly as much steel and copper as a rotary phase converter or even a transformer large enough to deliver the load would be. VFD is going to have much less losses as compared to a rotary converter.
 

hurk27

Senior Member
Generally for a load like this a roto phase converter would be a good choice as both loads could be run from one of them, as having one load running while the other starts allows for even more load, but that could be a problem as the 30 amp load might not be calling for cooling at the time the 20 amp load start, remember any 3 phase motor load will also act as a fly wheel generator that will act to help additional loads on the missing phase, also I saw some worry about single phase loads and or 120 volt loads, this was not correct, as two of the phases are always passed through to the load when using an RPC, I have installed many of these and I have never seen one wired any different, so passing through a neutral will always work fine as long as these loads are on one of the phases that is passed through.

But to wire the RPC correctly will take some motor control wiring skills to add timer relays to the control circuit that will start the RPC before the compressor starts, using an added time delay in the control circuit of each cooling unit so the the RPC has time to spin up before the compressor starts other wise you will have to have the RPC running 24/7 which will add to their electric bill, I have used an RPC for a 3-phase air compressor quite a few times and using the above controls is a must if you want the most economical way to run one, fairly simple circuit as you will now use the pressure switch (or thermostat as in this case) to control a timer relay that has both a settable timed output and a non-timed output, using the non-timed output to bring the motor starter in to start the RPC and the timed output to start up the compressor, these contacts must be isolated as you want each unit to be controlled by its own thermostat but either will bring up the RPC before either can start its compressor, also you should use an auxiliary contact on the motor starter for the RPC to prevent either cooler from trying to start if the overloads happen to trip for any reason, you do not want the cooler or freezer to try to start up if you don't have the RPC running.

but here are some points to ponder:
you will have to price the cost of not only the RPC (roto phase converter) but a magnetic motor starter with the correct overloads set for the FLA of the RPC, and the additional timers for each cooling unit, if you plan to just let the RPC run 24/7 then a manual motor starter will all you will need, but expect to let them know that the RPC will use as much as 50% of its FLA, also there is the requirements of a disconnect ahead of the RPC and even a 3-phase breaker panel or disconnects after the RPC for each load.

If needed I can draw you up a simple diagram for the wiring of the timer relays to control the RPC motor starter with each thermostat if you need. hopefully the two walk in's will be in close proximity to each other to keep the wiring cost down.

To size the RPC you will need the actual FLA of largest compressor as you do not need to size an RPC for both just the largest one, you might need to have a delay on one of them to keep both compressors from ever trying to start at the same time with the delay always allowing the larger load to start first so the delay should be placed on the smaller unit, (a little trick I use when I have two central airs on one whole house generator) once either unit has started it doesn't matter if the other one comes on line as either unit will act as a fly wheel to help the other to start.

If anyone sees any problem with the above please chime in.

The problem is this is not going to be cheap, and maybe changing the compressors to single phase units might be a viable choice given the above things you will have to go through to keep the long term cost down.
 

jiggawatt79

Member
Location
New Mexico
thread update

thread update

I talked them into changing out the compressors to single phase. Well, let me back up for a second. I told them that I would not warranty the phase converter. I suggested they change out the compressors and they went for it. Not sure if I got the job though. I am bidding against a couple of other contractors. Thanks for the info guys.
 
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